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Added Mar 28 2012

According to a poster at, a Pit Bull attacked a small dog and killed it while the owner of the Pit not only did anything to stop the attack, but then left without providing contact info.

Here is the link if anyone knows who it is.

  • Inactive user

    Matt - Clearly you've never watched the Dog Whisper. One of his prized dogs was a rescued pit bull. It was trained to fight/kill. Caesar rescued it, re-habbed it and then took it to homes on a regular basis as training aid.

    It's kinda like saying anyone who wears a Hoodie is a Gang Banger.

    My neighbor has had a pit bull for 12 years it's a delightful dog,
    very well socialized and TRAINED!

    I had a German Shepard for 13 years - it wasn't a police attack dog. It to was properly socialized and TRAINED. It played with his other pit bull on most days.

    Most aggressive dogs have lousy owners who never trained them or socialized them. They clearly want a dog for intimidation purposes.

    Hint - if you see a pitbull with a heavy chain link collar and a similar style heavy leash - the owner is clearly sending a message he/she is someone who has issues.

    As I stated before, if the dog is a jerk the owner is usually a bigger one.

    Anyone with a sliver of knowledge about dogs and the pac social structure would not make such a blanket statement. Extensive research and investigation has conclusively identified the ownership/management practices that are at the root of the rare, but perfect, storm when a dog becomes dangerous.

    Matt, if you don't believe me go to this link and learn.

  • Joe in Andersonville Landlord and life-long northside Chicago resident

    I tend to agree with you, Matthew. I understand that many pit bull owners' dogs are trained, socialized or otherwise made to behave and would take exception to being lumped together in a category that puts this stigma on them. Too, pit bull lovers and supporters have gone to great lengths to tell stories and show examples of pit bulls who are loving and congenial and never demonstrate what they call the "prey instinct." Still, breeds have characteristics that are innate as you've noted in your post and that's why I'm always cautious around any pit bull/mix and would likely never choose to own one given that many of my relatives and friends who visit have young children and small dogs. I can appreciate that stereotyping or generalizing is going to be challenged, the small element of truth is enough for me to have the opinion I share here.

  • No Ed, it's not at all like calling somebody a gangbanger that wears a hoodie. You completely miss the point if you think that analogy even somewhat fits.

    Wearing a hoodie is a coscious decision that somebody makes. Different breeds of dogs are bred to do certain things. Pit bulls were bred to kill - it's in their nature, it's hereditary - they don't make the decision to be that way.

  • Inactive user

    Did you know every cab driver in Chicago is rude, smelly, a dangerous driver and comes from a foreign country.

    It must be so, I took 3 cabs last week and that was
    my experience.

    Broad generalizations are not accurate unless your talking about anthrax, sunrise or sunset.

  • Inactive user

    Visit the link I posted. Here's a couple more that shoot your
    flawed theory down. The first is a webinar slated for March 30.

    This 3rd site is further proof you and Matt are misguided.

    “The whole model is about responsible pet ownership,” writes Bill Bruce, Director of Calgary Animal and Bylaw Services, and an advisor to NCRC. “In North America, we don't really have an animal problem; we've got a people problem. I think that's the first realization you've got to come to - it's not about the animal, it's about the people.” The findings of Topál and his colleagues, and those of Delise, confirm Bruce’s cogent analysis.

    Delise, K, “Resident Dog vs. Family Dog: What is the Difference?” available at[1].pdf

    Topál J,. Miklósi Á, Csányi V, “Dog-Human Relationship Affects Problem Solving Behavior in the Dog,” Anthrozoos, 1997; 10: 214-224.

  • You're right in a way, Ed. It is a people problem - people created this disaster of a breed, and now people rationalize its existence.

    This isn't an issue of stereotyping. You're free to disagree that dogs are bred for certain traits - you'll be wrong though.

  • Inactive user

    YOu can lead a horse to water....

    Avail yourself to the links provided unless your not interested in
    factual research.

    End of thread for me.

  • Kevin B. My dogs own me.

    Thanks everyone for paying attention to the link but as usual the topic has gone off track. If you know who the owner of the Pit Bull that attacked the other dog is, or can repost somewhere else in hopes of finding him, great.

    Ed/Matt, thanks for the spirited conversation but feel free to contact each other off line to continue the Pit Bull as a hereditary killer / Owner abused and misunderstood breed.

  • Come on Ed, don't run away. Do different breeds of dogs have hereditary traits due to breeding that cause them to do and/or act in certain ways?

  • Inactive user


  • Inactive user

    Ed and Matt,
    People seem to never agree when it comes to innate characteristics of pit bulls. I tend to believe a pit bull can be trained to not kill everything in site. I have been to Dogtown in Utah where the Michael Vick survivors landed. These dogs were trained to kill and some were trained as bait, yet most of them have been re-trained to be loving, happy and non-aggressive. Many have found good homes at last. That's all of the proof I need.

  • @Matthew A. Ed has very nicely done research, whereas you have posted no research to support your position. Your opinion holds no weight without support (unless you're an expert dog trainer, biologist, vet, or something related)

  • Inactive user

    god! Just offering an opinion because I've met many of the re-trained dogs. No research needed since Ed very nicely submitted it to you.

  • Dan 25-year Rogers Park resident

    This is really sad. I hope the owner can be held accountable for his dog's behavior. My condolences to the owner of the small dog that was killed.

  • @ Jane I'm undecided on breed bans of any breed, but currently leaning more towards it's probably not the answer to the problem.

    However, I have this perception that [Pitbulls] seem to have a potential to really do damage, moreso than most other breeds. It is my perception that they tend to hold on in a bite. I have read this in several stories. One example is the incident in Rainbow Park: a guy was attacked by 2 pitties, a man tried to get them to stop with a baseball bat - "He said he hit the dogs repeatedly, but they wouldn't relent. 'They just wouldn't let the man go'"

    You can talk about bite force, but I think the force is irrelevant, besides, the data is difficult to interpret anyhow. The problem I think is the tendency, for a pit to hold on, no matter what's being done to it to stop. This is what has been bred into it - the breed was developed with this trait being the desired outcome. More on breed later.

    As for the Michael Vick survivors - so what? These dogs were rehabilitated, great. Given the time & money & dedication, lots of amazing things can be done. Is this common? Does the average dog owner have what's necessary (time, money for training, perseverance) to train a dog, let alone rehabilitate one?

    Could very many people train & keep a wolf, or a bobcat, or alligator as a pet, or some other high-potential-for-danger animal? Can & are some dangerous animals kept as pets successfully? Should anyone be given the opportunity to just adopt one of these from a shelter?

    I'm going to post this, thought there's so much more for me to say, but I have to go make sandwiches for my kids, and hopefully spend half an hour working with my 13 month old dog. I wish I had more time to put into training her, but it's not easy. I'll be lucky if it's uninterrupted.

  • Julie Uptown/Andersonville

    So, does anyone have any useful information to add regarding the identity of this dog owner or another "all (insert breed here) are bad" troll opportunity?

  • F. R. Johnson recently transplanted to Portage Park

    I saw this on the news. So is he going to pay the vet bill? Do the victim's owners have to sue him? If so, I hope they get a lot for pain and suffering!

  • Does anyone know the name of the cop?

  • Bill Thayer 25 years on Arthur Avenue

    I wish it were otherwise, but that the guy turned out to be a Chicago cop is not so surprising. I've had a coupla personal experiences with off-duty cops: an aggressive streak combined with a feeling they can do whatever they like. One actually told me, "I *am* the law."

    But we do live in a better world. Computers make things more efficient, the Internet puts us all much closer in touch, and cameras on every phone make it far harder to hide evil deeds. The MonDog people should be congratulated for making the photo public and thus leading to the man's apprehension. I'm on my way to make a small donation to their website right now.

  • Bill Thayer 25 years on Arthur Avenue

    Oh, and we probably have EveryBlock (parent corporation: MSNBC) to thank as well for getting this story out. Thanks EveryBlock!

  • Owner of pit bull that attacked dog was off-duty cop
    Updated at 08:15 AM today

    Comment NowEmailPrintReport a typo

    April 18, 2012 (CHICAGO) (WLS) -- A five-year veteran of the Chicago Police Department has been relieved of his police powers after becoming the target of an Internal Affairs investigation.

    Related Content
    STORY: Dog dies from pit bull attack at Montrose Beach
    Authorities say the officer was off duty while at the Montrose Beach dog park with his pit bull March 17. The pit bull attacked an 8-lbs. Pomeranian mix named Willy.

    Willy died three days later from massive injuries.

    At the time of the attack, no one knew the owner was an off-duty Chicago police officer. A number of witnesses said he did not seem to take the attack seriously and never contacted Willy's owner --even though she says she gave him her contact information.

    Willy's owner incurred veterinary bills nearing $6,000.

    The officer has been cited with not reporting the attack. Chicago police released the following statement Tuesday:

    "The Chicago Police Department expects its members to demonstrate the highest standards of conduct on and off duty and will not permit wrongdoing to go unaddressed. Today, the Bureau of Internal Affairs initiated an investigation into the actions of an off-duty member involved in a violation related to the death of an animal owner's dog earlier this month at a dog park. The Animal Crimes Team, which was investigating the incident, cited the member for duty of an animal owner to make notification within 24 hours when an animal has bitten any other domestic animal. The five-year member informed the Department of his involvement and has been relieved of police powers pending the outcome of the investigation."

    (Copyright ©2012 WLS-TV/DT. All Rights Reserved.)

  • src Glenwood Home Owner

    I've been so sad ever since I've heard this, now i'm just plain pissed. I'm so glad that the 'cop' has had his job stripped of him for not reporting it, even though he's clearly an @hole for not training his dog properly. My poor little 5.5lb girl would have been no match for him, and you bet your ass I would have put my own life on the line to save her.

    Oh, and...a big 'ole pit rescue is among one of my 5.5lb papillon /maltese mix's canine neither of us are against the breed. Don't bring an agressive dog to the beach, period.

  • I'm just sick that it's even an issue for discussion that they guy pay the vet tab. I'm not certain of him losing his job for it, but such negligence should be heavily penalized in general. I don't know the law on this, could someone tell me what the law is on the following (my google finger is busy right now)
    -what if the papillon had been a child that got attacked, let alone killed? Or,
    -what if it had been the guy's child that had done this to the dog?
    -what if the guy himself had done it?

  • Inactive user

    Chicago's "dangerous dog" ordinance requires that dog owners are supposed to notify Animal Control within 24 hours of their animal attacking/ biting another domestic animal or person, etc.

    Cops who consider themselves to be above the law probably shouldn't be cops anymore. In all fairness, I have no doubt burnout and stress contribute to that sort of behavior. Cops deal with the worst of the worst on a daily basis. Nevertheless, once job-related desensitization to violence and illegal activities causes public safety officers to operate against the laws they are sworn to protect, it contributes to a broken system.

    Maybe this suspension, along with mandatory sensitivity training or some kind of how-to-be-a-good-citizen class, is just what this officer needs to be reminded that he is beholden to the same laws you and I are. Just sayin'

  • F. R. Johnson recently transplanted to Portage Park

    He of all people should have known better. Probably thought no one would identify him.

  • Jennifer M. Black Weekday Warrior of the Red Line

    RE : Could very many people train & keep a wolf, or a bobcat, or alligator as a pet, or some other high-potential-for-danger animal? Can & are some dangerous animals kept as pets successfully? Should anyone be given the opportunity to just adopt one of these from a shelter?

    There's a flaw to that logic. Wolves, bobcats, and alligators are all wild animals. Pit bulls are domestic dogs and have hundreds (thousands?) or years of domestication behind them. Problem is pits have incredible power in their jaws. Combine that with the fact that they are terriers, known for tenacity, and you wind up with the potential for very bad bites. In my work as a vet assistant and a shelter volunteer, I've been bitten several times by different dogs, but never a pittie.

    Does that mean pits are harmless? No, of course not. They have teeth. Anything with teeth can bite. But just like any other breed with the potential to do serious damage (dobermans, German shepherds, Rhodesian ridgebacks, even labs and standard poodles), they need to be owned by people who can handle them and no how to train them. It's not the breed that that's the problem. It's the people.

    Statistically, the dogs most prone to biting are labs, cocker spaniels, and chihuahuas. I'll find a citation for that later.

  • KMQ New to the Uptown Sound

    @Jennifer: I'm not saying that your opinion is flawed in logic, but "domesticated" vs "wild" just a matter of when it happens? If I take a baby alligator out of its nest and raise it in my home, doesn't that make is a domestic animal? If a Pit Bull is allowed to roam streets or alleys, doesn't that make it "wild"?

  • Bill Thayer 25 years on Arthur Avenue

    Curious philosophical question comes to mind, naturally: you and I are allowed to roam the streets — are we tame or wild?

  • Yes I agree the problem currently is one of management by the owners; that's the case for every breed or species of animal. And, a trained responsible (probably professional of some sort) person can keep & manage a bobycat or alligator, ie a wild animal. But those people are few & far between.

    There are plenty of people who have dogs who aren't particularly responsible, but for the most part they can get their dog to listen to them, or at least keep the dog from really hurting someone. In the case of some of the fighting dogs, especially the American Pit Bull Terrier, it seems to me (seems) once they have started fighting, often even their owners can't get them to stop by command alone. The APBT's were selectively bred to fight til the death, & the "winning" dogs will keep fighting as long as they physically can.

    I am still just learning about all of this, and these are opinions & not facts. Except I do want to disagree about bite force - it cannot be stated with a simple number. It depends on where in the dogs mouth you are measuring for one thing. The jaw is stronger as you move towards the back of it. Rotts & GSD's have a stronger overall bite force than Pits, according to some tests. But, whatever, the bite force doesn't matter when there are teeth. To me what's troublesome is the dog's innate drive to continue fighting (even if someone is hitting it with a baseball bat trying to stop it) and the holding on & not letting go.

    cont --->

  • If the fight drive wasn't a trait, I think probably even a somewhat irresponsible owner could keep an APBT with about the same amount of safety risk that they would have with say a Lab or other generally non-aggressive dog. But currently, said fight drive is a trait, and so currently the problem is management ie. the owner. Also it's not about "how it's raised". Currently, because we have tons of these "types" of dogs in existence, and that's a fact. As for the future, probably a dog with such capacity to do harm shouldn't be kept by just anyone, like a wild animal shouldn't be kept by just anyone. Maybe I'm being dramatic, but the fact that the APBT are wonderful sweet tempered family dogs is irrelevant when, & IF they are so potentially dangerous.

    interesting article on bite force:

  • Whether cops deal with the worst of the worst or not, this type of behavior is 100% unacceptable. I do not want that cop patrolling my streets and I think it's time for him to be let go.

  • Sean Courtney Fab 4 IT - freelance computer tech / web design

    FWIW, I've encountered several pit bulls in recent years -- and in fact, one weekend my wife was visiting her cousin and woke up and found that her blanket was gone and replaced by her cousin's pit bull! -- and they all had one thing in common: they were very, very sweet. I'm not officially a dog expert, but I find it hard to believe the fight drive is in-born...why are they popular attack dogs? Because they're strong. That's how I see it, at least...

    Having said that, though, it was extremely irresponsible of that cop. And what really grinds my gears is that they're not releasing the name of the officer. I propose that the first person who finds out the name of the officer, post it here, post it on Facebook, post it EVERYWHERE. You think we civilians would get a break and not have our names in the articles in this sitch?

  • Sean, Pit Bulls ARE naturally very sweet dogs, in fact they score very well on temperament tests. It is a fact however that the breed was (& continue to be) methodically bred for dog fighting. Lots & lots of animals are used for this purpose worldwide for "sport". Horses & Greyhounds for racing, roosters for fighting, etc

    a few tidbits from various sources:
    ...a supremely athletic, highly versatile, adaptive, gushingly affectionate, eager-to-please, all-around family dog.
    ...historically been bred to excel in combat with other dogs, a well-bred APBT has a rock-steady temperament and, contrary to popular belief, is NOT inherently aggressive towards humans.
    ...the vast majority of APBT's--even within the kennels of breeders who breed for fighting ability--never see any action in the pit. Instead they are loyal, loving, companion dogs and family pets.

    above bits from:

    more info:
    American PBT:
    animals in sports:

    how the heck do you put a picture with a comment? or is it even possible?

  • changed my profile pic to a few pitbull pics

  • Jennifer M. Black Weekday Warrior of the Red Line

    @KMQ No, it's doesn't. Domestication is a process taking hundreds of years. You cannot take a wild animal like a wolf or alligator and raise it and call it domestic. Domestication is a change at the genetic level; nature vs. nurture, if you will. Dogs are genetically programmed to respond to humans. Wolves are not.

    When a poodle is off-leash and roaming, it's not wild. It cannot fend for itself. It's not going to wander into the hills and join a pack of coyotes and be fine.

    If someone raises a coyote pup from infancy and acts as pack leader, it's still not a domestic animal. It's been conditioned to tolerate its humans and see them as pack leaders, but it wasn't genetically predispositioned that way. No more than a bear or a lion or a crocodile.

    Even with "less dangerous animals". There's a fundamental difference between my pet Fancy Rat and the rats that live in the alley.

  • KMQ New to the Uptown Sound

    @Jennifer: I appreciate your willingness to engage on the topic, but I just can't make the leap that its because of generations of breeding and how they have lived that makes animals (which include humans) wild vs tame. If you put a human in the jungle where it is on its own, does that make the human wild or domesticated? What about those who shoot people or harm others?

    If an animal is not allowed to be brought up in its initial environment, but rather one of a home, then why wouldn't it be able to be domesticated? Just because we dont understand it the way we think we understand a puppy?

    I think the destructive power of an alligator or a boa constrictor might sway people way from thinking it cant be domesticated. Is it wise? Of course not.

    Conditioning, as you mentioned before, is about how it is treated and trained in our environment. Your coyote is a perfect example. If you raise it in a home, it wont want to roam in packs like a wild coyote would. If you raised it like a dog, would it act like a dog?

  • KMQ you need to consult a dictionary. it is a matter of generations. People use the words incorrectly at times, you can kind of "tame" a wild animal, like a squirel, but it's not really tame, by definition.

    Domestication (from Latin domesticus) is the process whereby a population of animals (or plants), through a process of selection, is changed at the genetic level, accentuating traits that benefit humans.

  • KMQ New to the Uptown Sound

    @BDuggan: If what you say ('you can kind of "tame" a wild animal, like a squirel, but it's not really tame, by definition') is true, then no dog or cat is ever tame. They are just one freak accident away from biting a face off or clawing eyes out. See: Siegfried and Roy. Yes...its a big cat. :)

    While I am sure there is some scientific evidence around domestication over generations, there can also be evidence of the one-off case of a wild animal being domesticated.

    I refuse to believe that everything is just by nature. I think that correctly taught behaviors can domesticate any animal, wild or not.

  • Bill Thayer 25 years on Arthur Avenue

    Dogs, tigers, humans, we all have Wild in us, and need to be tamed. Squirrels, pit bulls, sweet-genetics Labradors, and the best people, all of us can snap. Unpredictable episodes are far less likely to happen with people who've been brought up in loving homes, and more likely with people who've been abused as children. Similarly with Dogs. Some fault to genetics, just as in our own case, but most of the fault with those who raise them.

    The difference between humans and Dogs is that we believe that we can overcome our experiences; we hold ourselves responsible. Dogs, as much as I love them, are just Dogs, and are more enslaved to what (or apparently, in the case at hand, *who*) has happened to them.

  • Ok, well I'm no expert & try to rely on sources for my info. I know Wikipedia isn't always spot on, as anyone can make edits, but I'm pretty sure the definition is accurate. I quoted the first sentence from the Wikipedia entry for "domestication". Probably should have included the 2nd one. If you want to go ahead & argue it fine, but no one is arguing that nurture is a huge, HUGE component for social creatures like dogs, I'm absolutely certain that nature is also a HUGE factor in behavior. An important point, in the case at hand of biting dogs, it's management of the dog, where neither nature nor nurture really matter much. It's who's in charge of the leash.

  • Sandy in EdgeGlen EdgeGlen since 1987

    Sadly, the best the Pom's owner can hope for in terms of direct justice is to be reimbursed for the vet bill, since it was incurred because of damage to property. Yup, you read correctly: in IL (as in most states), pets are considered "property" and their owners cannot recover in civil court for loss of companionship or the suffering inflicted on the pet. There are criminal penalties for cruelty to animals, but the fines go to the city, not to the owner of the killed or injured pet.

  • domesticated vs tamed:

    Domestication differs from taming in that a change in the phenotypical expression and genotype of the animal occurs, whereas taming is simply the process by which animals become accustomed to human presence.

    In the Convention on Biological Diversity, a domesticated species is defined as a "species in which the evolutionary process has been influenced by humans to meet their needs." Therefore, a defining characteristic of domestication is artificial selection by humans.

  • Thanks Sandy. It's terribly unfortunate that pets are just property. Sickeningly sad. I really want the name of this dirt bag. I'm not an advocate for harrassment, but on behalf of the Pom family, he needs to be pressured to apologize, and do something tangible for this family.

  • Sandy in EdgeGlen EdgeGlen since 1987

    Another incidence of the arrogance of many Chicago cops is what happened over the weekend to my voice teacher. His A/C in his garden-level condo was on the fritz and it was so hot that the fish and coral in his tank, as well as his two Chiuahua-mix dogs, were in danger, so he opened his windows and sliding patio door. The dogs went out on to the patio and began to bark, probably out of relief from finally getting some fresh night air. But the upstairs neighbor thought there was a home invasion in progress and called 911. The cops threw open the front door and bellowed "Chicago Police--come out with your hands up!" My voice teacher, suddenly awakened from sleep, came to the door in his underpants, greeted by two cops, one pointing a service revolver at him. He kept one hand in the air, as he announced he had to scratch his belly--and the other cop promptly drew his revolver and pointed it at his face. The cops kept pointing their weapons at him until his wife and 4-year old son came out--only then did the cops believe him that it was his own home. They didn't apologize for their mistake, but instead warned him to keep his dogs indoors at night!

  • Leerburg is a pretty well known source for dog training, but many don't care for the approach, as it's not exclusively positive-reinforcement, and some consider it too harsh. In any case, they have a good article on dog parks and how to handle aggression should you need to.

  • Bill W. 12 Year Resident of Rogers Park

    I have a big dog, he is 130 Lbs. Im not compensating for anything, he isnt a status symbol. He was a rescue, that was just goofy and super cute and I took him in.

    Point is, I know the capability of my dog. I spend hours training him and working with him. I keep himon the leash, even at the dog park. He doesnt need to run around the park, just being there with all the dogs around is socializing.

    The dogs arent at fault the owners are and for a cop to be so brazen that he behaved as such is incredible. But that is the culture, or so it seems of late, with all the allegations of corruption and mis-behavior in the CPD. I know a lot of cops and they are good people, so to generalize that the whole CPD is alike, that is wrong. He was a coward and needed to step up and take responsibility for his actions or inactions.

    Im sorry this all happened, but lets be realistic, blame that guy, not big dogs, big dog owners and cops in general. People in our culture all feel entitled and it seems that no one ever takes responsibility for what they do, it is always someone elses fault. This should be a lesson to everyone, take responsibility for yourself and your decisions.

    I hope this guy loses his job and has to pay for all that poor family's losses plus some.

  • F. R. Johnson recently transplanted to Portage Park

    Well, hopefully this guy finding himself on the news (including the picture of him and his dog) and being confronted by superiors has him seriously regretting not taking responsibility for what happened and doesn't just make him angry about the trouble "other people" are causing him. You are so right Bill W. about those who just want to blame someone else. Sure hope he either offers to pay the vet bill or is pressured into doing the right thing. If other people can be fined for wrongdoing, he sure can.

  • F. R. Johnson recently transplanted to Portage Park

    B Duggan, thanks for the article. It's good to know this guy won't just walk away from what his dog did.

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