Robin...living hell? Think that statement through.
Mike, you are right. You shouldn't adapt to your surroundings like most things on Earth. The entire neighborhood should adapt to you. Also, you said it was a gang neighborhood when you moved here, and you CHOSE it that way. So now it has evolved to a festive drunk atmosphere with shenanigans and you want it to go back to turf wars with homicides, drugs and gun trafficking?
I moved to Wrigleyville several years ago with little knowledge of what goes on around here. Some of it got on my nerves (especially the parking during Cubs and snow season) but I learned to adapt and it doesn't bother me anymore. That's just how it is.
Learn to flow like water friend. You'll enjoy life a lot more.
Thanks for the profound wisdom Lemon. Where did you get the idea I am trying to change the entire neighborhood? My original comment was to point out how this one particular event has gotten out of control, kinda like this thread. My reference to rat hole neighborhood was exactly that, there are rats freaking everywhere. That is something relatively new and one thing I would like to change.
Here is some wisdom for you, don’t put words in other people’s mouths - it might bite you someday friend.
I think it's sad that old people in this city don't appreciate how young people enjoy having fun and going out. It's a shame how judgmental old people can be about these types of events. And we have to support them with Social Security!!
lets dial back the rhetoric and focus on solutions.
1. bar owners are responsible for what happens in their establishments. - that means preventing.over-serving customers and over-crowding (where was the fire marshal satuday?). 2. the organizers are responsible for what happens as a result of their event - that includes hiring private security (i did see a few off-duty officers, however they were completely overwhelmed) and street cleanup (during and after). 3. cpd is responsible for arresting criminals (there was no shortage of those, including trespassing, public urination, destruction of property, drunk & disorderly, and likely a few thefts, etc). 4. YOU are responsible for contacting any and all of these re: your concerns on this event. if a bar is causing problems, run it up the chain of command. if a wasted elf is peeing on your building, call a cop.
i have no doubt that festa wants to run a successful event and your feedback will help guide that.
I get your point SLP...but this is why my solution to those who complain is to "give up and move". Move to an area that might be "boring", but isn't full of bars and the drunks who come from them. Rent your old house or condo out to young people who want to party every weekend and simply find your quiet neighborhood where you'll never deal with it.
I know many hate that notion, with the usual "why do I have to concede? why can't I fight?" but I more say to find that quiet area and then put up a fight when some businessmen come wanting a late-night liquor license for whatever "nice place" they claim they're making.
This is why I'd rather fight to keep Eddie Carranza and others from using the Portage Theater in my area from becoming a loud insane concert hall, or why I'd sign petitions to not allow a big parking garage in Jeff Park which will allow the Copernicus Center to hold metal and rap shows...but I won't sit there trying to push WrigleyVille, Lake View, Wicker Park, Lincoln Park, or the Viagra Triangle to have less drunken debauchery.
SLP...I think this is the usual conflict of people who move to what they think is a "fun" area, but then later wish it could become quieter or "family friendly". I remember back 10-15 years ago when all the nightclubs on Fulton St near Halsted were pushed out by the yuppies who suddenly wanted a quieter spot to live...when they moved there fully knowing it was full of nightclubs.
the fact of the matter is that these type of events will continue to happen until something serious occurs that causes the event to be cancelled (someone is killed or some building violation puts a lot of people at risk as a result).
The normal transgressions that occur during cubs games in the summer will be dealt with but will be allowed to happen at this type of event as well, i.e. public drunkenness, trespassing, public urination, destruction of property, drunk & disorderly conduct. The reason is simple; money! this event brings money into the area. As a result there will allows be a tolerance for illegal activity as long as it remains mostly minor and under relative control.
Of course the event has grown over the years. the first few bars that particiated in this event saw an uptick in their revenues so more and more barsjoined over the years to get their slice of the pie. And of course any activity that allows open drunkenness from 8 am until 3 am is going to be mobbed by the young masses.
I say go get drunk, live it up, stumble home. its a part of living in a lively neighborhood. As I mentioned it no big difference from a daytime Cubs game!
I can honestly say this event didn't effect me in anyway as I was gone for most of it, but....
1. There are way too many events in this area that block traffic, disrupt daily routines, etc. Some people do work on the weekends (have to due to the economy), aren't still living flop-house style 3 years after graduating college.....and, well, have things to do. If you want to uphold these condo values that are declining rapidly, you're not going to attract mature, responsible people to the area to buy them at whatever price when you want to flee. I'm not the party-pooper here and like to have fun myself but, again, you have way too many of these drunk fests for this area to uphold the respect it seems to believe it's entitled to. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
2. I'm tired of the word "charity" thrown onto everything in this town too. We're not stupid.
4. Also tired of the word "holiday" substituted for Christmas so as not to offend or unnerve. This was clearly an Xmas titled event (that word is bad enough) but then to dilute it further with "holiday"is insulting. I saw elves and santas running around, not menorahs on wheels or Kwanzaa kites. PC people? If you really had a cause and were so compassionate, make sure this piss fest is re-titled for next year. Anything for a $ though. I'm not religious. Quit patronizing "white" people and their beliefs/customs.
5. Gay bars participating in something like this now? Besides the rampant crime, this is also why your business is dwindling. It's great to make a $ of the latest trend but you should probably be reminded where you came from. You can most certainly tell times are hard now.
6. Before another thread is posted on EB about the persistent problem with dog poop attracting rats, I'm quite certain puddles of puke left all over do too. Someone has to take responsibility for this.
There's a difference between having an event and people getting drunk and having fun, and having an event where people leave and become downright destructive to the neighborhood - knocking over trash cans and signs, whipping wooden chairs at people's cars (yes, that happened - hope it wasn't *your* car Vlad!)
I worked a local Chamber of Commerce that put on large neighborhood events and will say there is a HUGE difference between events like Pride and events like TBOX in that Pride organizers are held liable for anything that goes on during their event. They have insurance, permits, clean-up crew, barricades, etc. With events like TBOX, do you know who does the post-event clean-up? People like Mike who actually have a vested interest in the neighborhood and didn't just move here post-college with the idea that it's acceptable to act like a disrespectful, destructive barn animal.
Remember, if it wasn't for people like Mike and others who have lived here for decades and helped turn the neighborhood around, it wouldn't be the neighborhood you enjoy today.
1- Put simply- The large majority of attendees of this event don’t care about the neighborhood. At all. Give a close and honest look at the majority of the behavior for 5 minutes and the facts before you just won’t bear it out.
2- Whether or not individuals who descend on the neighborhood themselves personally enjoy it doesn't mean that those people who do live in/ contribute to the neighborhood are required to cater to the lowest common denominator of demographics.
3- Is the “if you don’t like it you can move” argument the most vacuous, childish, and overused excuse in the history of comments sections? Do we really think that that is a constructive argument against the people who live and work in the community trying to make it the best reflection of the things that they most value? Or against them taking what they feel to be appropriate measures to combat what is essentially tacitly approved- if not categorically illegal- at least, borderline illegal behavior? Positing that line of argument doesn't demonstrate maturity, it belies it.
4- It doesn't really matter what context you put it in; unsafe, disrespectful, and destructive behavior is not beneficial for anyone.
BeenThere, an event that's required for people to go to, such as a mandatory public school event, needs to be considerate of all religions and holidays. But anyone can have an optional event for any one specific religion. I can have a Kwanza party without having to label it as a Christmas or Hannukah party.
The fact that nobody dressed as a menorah could be that a menorah costume would be too bulky, too expensive (since it's bigger and requires more fabric and structure/support), or maybe because the event was just attended by more Christian people. In no way should Christians have to dress in Menorahs just so that the costumes at an optional event are evenly split between all possible holidays. Further, TBOX did in no way require for someone participating to be a Christian, and sold tickets to plenty of people that celebrate Hannukah or maybe even others. I have Jewish friends that attended this year's TBOX with no complaints about the name not mentioning Hannukah.
The Jewish population of Cook County is 8% of the total Cook County population. 
After you argued for non-discrimination of holidays, you argued that gay bars should not participate, which confused me. I don't see why any bar can't join the festivities. Crowds are easier to control if spread over a larger area, and more bars means more staff that can control a situation.
Lisa, I don't own a car. That's a personal choice I made, taking into account the wonderful public transportation in this city, and the awful parking conditions in Lakeview. As part of the parking problem, there is a problem of car theft, as well as damage. It's a risk of parking on a public street anywhere, although the risk is higher in bigger cities, since there are higher numbers of criminals per square mile (due to the higher population density).
It sucks that people's cars get damaged. It really does. But, the social solution to this problem can be either preventing the problem by bolting down chairs and baseball bats and anything that could cause damage, OR it could be mitigating the damage afterwards. This can be done by filing an insurance claim. Your insurance company already charges you a higher premium if you park on the street in a major city, relative to if you parked the same car in a locked garage, or a garage with an attendant and surveillance cameras. That higher premium goes towards fixing your car when someone damages it.
As someone who grew up a mile from the park in the 70s and 80s, I sympathize with Mike but agree with Alex. Clark Street has been a major night life strip since the 19th century, the street (and economic) action is hardly a new development, the urban flight that led to the gang activity is a historical aberration, not the baseline.
OK, talk about getting off topic, social security SLP! I have provided for my retirement myself and I am not counting on the social security that I paid into.
Now on to the current topic. I have been stupid drunk too, and may have puked and peed in an alley - that is not the major problem with TBOX, it goes with the territory in Wrigleville. But what I do have a problem with is the vandalism, fighting, and drunk/buzzed driving - which abounds around the TBOX event. My original comment was about a bunch of drunk santa’s removing construction barricades from a 10 by 20 foot hole in the street at the corner of Cornelia and Seminary. That’s not funny, it’s down right dangerous and very illegal. I find it sad that some young people seem to find this behavior tolerable and even funny - the santa’s found it hilarious. I thought about calling 911 but how could I identify the santa’s among the multitudes. I did put the barricades back myself. They were gone again this morning.
SLP if you call me judgmental so be it. However I have every right to voice my concerns about a particular event that affects me directly. The good news is that TBOX is over for this year and nothing terribly tragic happened - at least that I know of.
Stand vigilant, take photos/videos of the bad behavior, piss off some idiots when they get their photo taken, post it online to embarrass them, and attend community meetings to continually push the case.
Granted the bar owners will use more influence to win battles, but that site I posted did win the war.
I just don't see the value in acquiescing to aspects and elements that are so bereft of any value or merit. It is more encouraging to see people engage their fellow residents and take productive measures to make their neighborhood vibrant, safe, and livable.
I also don't see the naivete in someone basically saying that they don't want illegal (disrespectful, dangerous, destructive) activity to occur in their neighborhood. It is hard for me to knock that person. There is nothing unreasonable about that to me, no matter what the context, geography, or timing. And I don't accept "well, deal with it or move" as the only two choices.
Jeff, I agree that unreasonable behavior should not be tolerated, nor do I condone illegal activity. I'm simply suggesting that the people that proximately cause the damage should be responsible, and not the event planners of an event, nor the bar owners or staff.
I meant to state that it is impossible to protect everyone all of the time from others' intentional physical conduct, such as damage of property. If someone wants to smash a chair into a car, they're going to do it whether a bartender serves them, whether someone plans a barcrawl, or whether they drink in their own home. There will always be physical objects that can be used to break people's property, and it is impossible to prevent this harm by means of any policy.
You CAN prevent it by stopping those actors from damaging the property if you see them. You CAN hold them liable to their actions.
I'm not saying that people SHOULD be allowed to pee on buildings or that people SHOULD be allowed to puke in public.
I'm saying that the event planners and the bar should not be held liable for other people's intentional conduct.
As for the insurance claim, I meant to say that you are already paying a higher premium for not parking in a garage, and that it is covered.
I agree with Jeff that personal accountability is the solution.
Robn, I don't work for Festa. I'm just a neighbor. I moved the area BECAUSE it was fun and vibrant. I don't condone violence, I don't condone any damage to property, and like Jeff, support personal accountability.
In the "grown up world," bars are liable legally. But, as a neighbor, I promote personal accountability. Mike also has asked that you don't sue the event planners nor the bar.
I never told anyone to "deal or move," but told Mike that IF he wants to move but CANNOT for strictly economic reasons, he could look at foreclosures.
I also never meant that insurance was the only solution, but merely pointed out that you can't always stop people from doing evil. I also pointed out that people that own cars and don't own garages or pay for parking spots in garages DO pay more in insurance already, and it is often a temporary solution.
I agree with Jeff that personal accountability is key, and with Mike that we shouldn't be suing the bar owners or event planners.
I agree that if someone is hellbent on doing something destructive, they'll find a way to do it.
Creating an environment of easy access for that genre of behavior though should be avoided, not fostered.
I also think that if certain activities/events/establishments are found to be particularly conducive to or facilitative of an inordinate amount of what we'll just loosely define as "bad things", then there can and should be proper, measured, and correspondingly congruent repercussions.
Finally, we all know that the proximate cause of destructive behavior doesn't start and stop with the patron/consumer. Many a revoked liquor license can speak to this point. Not to mention IL statutes which do hold commercial vendors liable for injuries/property damage caused by intoxicated customers if they serve liquor to him/her after he was visibly intoxicated
(p.s. - this is mudslinging? is that a serious statement?)
i believe the fellows in the blue vests are affiliated with the event. be sure to note their ineffectiveness to keep idiots out of the street and from wandering into traffic.
1. CPD should close clark from addison to newport. 2. festa should pay for extra uniformed police (NOT off-duty) and a post-event cleaning crew. 3. the CFD should have a fire marshal inspect every bar during the event for violations.
this event should be held with the same regard to safety as market days, pride, etc. (if not more so since it's only focus is to get wasted) and, it only takes 1 fire, 1 shooting, 1 mistake to cause a tragedy.
I'm all for personal accountability...that should come first. But that doesn't mean the event organizers and bar owners don't have culpability. Security needs to be a lot stronger next year, and that cost should go entirely to the organizers...not the tax payers.
Robin, not that I need to defend myself to you, but I'm a 34 year old, married teacher who is pregnant. I attended yesterday's pub crawl with my husband and our good friends and had just as much fun as I've had in the past, I felt safe and at no point did I feel as though I had put myself in an unsafe situation. While I'm sure that wasn't the case everywhere and throughout the day and night, it was for the short time I attended. There are always going to be bad eggs that spoil what should just be a fun time, as there were yesterday. The only difference between it and things like opening day at wrigley were the types of costumes worn. Both your first and second assumptions of me were off, based on what seems to solely be our differing of opinion on this matter. I ask you, who is behaving like a bully now?
Happy holidays, everyone- lets try to embrace the spirit if the season as opposed to attacking each other on a post that long ago became a tad bit ridiculous.
I just got back from the Alderman’s office and spoke with his aid Erin Duffy. She informed me that the Alderman is upset with Festa entertainment because they did not live up to their part of the agreement, she did not get into specifics but did mention something about too many TBOX tickets were sold. I have been told it was 25,000. That is more than the total allowed occupancy for all the bars. Festa is also planning a Madri Gras themed pub crawl in February and another baseball themed pub crawl in April or May. Seems like if Festa could find a reason there would be a pub crawl weekly.
1) The drunken frat boy-style debauchery in Wrigleyville isn't going to stop. Too many have too much money invested (including the Ricketts family) to see it end. Not unless we see something huge like a full scale riot with deaths.
2) If Festa is looking to do more of this and the residents have issue...then speak up. Look at the Lake/Halsted site I posted earlier as an example. Go to your CAPS meetings and speak up, take photos, record videos, post them, and continue the assault until the promoters and bars take more responsibility for the behavior of their customers.
Hey Alex, I have not checked the web site you recommend but will shortly. Believe me the neighbors have been very actively complaining to the Alderman. I have taken photos and taken video and posted to YouTube. I have been to liquor commission meetings at city hall and met with the police at the Alderman’s office. It appears to me that the Alderman is reluctant to act because of the big money issue. The nuclear option has been floated - vote the precinct dry. If a petition is circulated and enough people sign, the vote dry would be on the next general election ballot. If half the voters who vote in the election are for voting it dry - it’s a done deal - Sate of Illinois law. There are 746 registered voters in the 38th precinct, ward 44. 639 voted in the November 2012 election. A large majority of the housing in the 38th precinct are condominiums and home owners are beginning to worry about decreasing property values because of all the nonsense associated with the bars on Clark street.
Way back I was hired to do the website for Chromium Nightclub, and its owner had asked me one day if I knew how to hack and destroy a website. I said "no" because I honestly couldn't...and didn't want to risk falling into a criminal life.
The site was run by a few residents who bought lofts on the street and at first had no issue with some of the clubs/bars in the area, but they were getting out of control. They would post photos/videos of gang fights and other drunken violence that would happen weekly (because many of those clubs pandered to gang bangers).
Eventually the Alderman and Police kept a closer eye and many places ended up losing their licenses because of the repeat problems.
I just think that while I can't see Wrigleyville bars getting shut down, I can see some real hardcore neighborhood action causing the bad elements to get fined, plus someone on YouTube or elsewhere shown pissing on someone's lawn or throwing wooden chairs or whatever else will embarrass them enough to calm down when drinking.
No guarantees...but sometimes you need to show the drunken douches on the net to simply prove the point and drive it home.
Where do you get the figures that property values in Lakeview are decreasing? Trulia.com is a real estate website that conveniently provides statistical trends on average prices by week, month, and year. They started tracking Lakeview in 2009, so the long-term analysis may not be there, but recently, home prices (based on their listings) seem to have been increasing.
This past month's average listing prices, by Week ending on: Nov 28 - $478,526 (3% increase) Nov 21 - $464,561 Nov 14 - $453,269 Nov 7 - $449,597
They also show a 38.2% increase from last year's average of $318,750 in August, compared to this august at $440,500.
Vlad I am not talking about the entire Lakview area, only one small precinct that abuts up to Clark street. I do not have any hard figures just a sense from talking to my neighbors and a realtor friend. A few have talked about selling in the spring. In my post I said “the home owners are beginning to worry about decreasing property values”. The activity on Clark street has been getting exponentially worse every year. Prospective buyers are beginning to take notice of this and would rather live a few blocks away rather than right on top of this madness.