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Added Dec 08 2012

What is going on groups of college age kids out and partying, looks like a pub crawl, anyone know what is the event?

  • Tod in Northcenter originally from Philly, have been a Chicago res...

    TBOX. Twelve Bars Of Christmas...annual event! You'll see plenty of Christmas pj's running around today! :)

  • bill caldwell 15-Year Lake View resident.

    I was wondering the same thing. Never really noticed it before.

  • Marcus M McGee stratford bolgger

    12 bars originally, now 43 est 20-30k ppl

  • http://www.festaparties.com/events/tbox-twelve-bars-of-xmas-aka-12-bars-of-xmas-chicago-pub-crawl/ The website says there are 43 bars participating - it has certainly grown since I took part five years ago.

  • TMH

    is this event connected to any charity or is it just another opportunity to drink all day in wrigleyville? Oh yeah, with the great requirement of having to pay $40 to be a part of the 12+ hours of drinking

  • sly-3 donkey wrangler to the stars

    there' s probably too much $ being made to shut the event down, however, CPD should shut down clark from traffic for this "event" and charge the organizers (much the same way film crews are charged for altering traffic). they've had to re-route buses to halsted & it's been a chorus of ambulance sirens since around 10 am. i would be interested to know how much the policing and clean up for this actually costs the taxpayers.

  • I don't know much about the event but was hoping that some of the proceeds would go to a good cause

  • Neighbor Mom involved in my communities

    Sounds fun and something that keeps this city lively. it would be cool if the event donated a % to something in the neighborhood or city, such as local food pantries.

  • All the proceeds go to charity. Let the kids have their fun.

  • It's a Santa pub crawl

  • Mike C Wrigleyville Same Wrigleyville address since 1976

    Yeah let them have their “fun”. I live ½ block away from Clark and just witnessed a crowd of drunk holiday clad young men tear down the construction barricades protecting a large hole in the street at Cornelia and Seminary - and it’s only 7 PM. Every year this TBOX thing gets more and more out of control. Someday something tragic will occur with all this out of control drinking.

  • I don't think u can single out this event, I saw the same type of thing happen at Market Days & Gay Pride so overall I believe it happens when you have people drinking

  • Alex M. Jeff Park, web design, DJ, thinker

    Welcome to Chicago. People have many occasions (and seek more) to be piss drunk and act childish.

    I don't condone bad drunken behavior, but to expect areas like Lake View or Wrigleyville to be clean family fun spots where 20 and 30 somethings don't go acting like frat boys is just unrealistic in my book.

  • We do live in Wrigleyville. Drunken crowds do stupid things every time there is a home game. There are over 60 games every season played at home, and each game has masses of drunk people wandering around our neighborhood and using our public transportation (the 2012 season averaged 35,589 people per game). In fact, there are drunk crowds all over the city, if you look at city-wide events such as the taste of Chicago, Lollapalooza, etc.

    Wrigleyville is considered to be a hotspot for locals and tourists alike, seeking to enjoy good drink specials and get sloppy. These bars are by no means classy, upscale, nor do they promote relaxed, soothing, and quiet environments. They are geared towards young, loud, and wild crowds. Yes, it may be a public nuisance. But you chose to move here, over other quieter neighborhoods.

    With respect to your fear of something bad happening, yes, it is possible. But something tragic can happen anytime you get into your car, or even board a train, bus, or airplane. In addition to the regular security each bar regularly employs, today, I saw "Festa Parties" employees (the company that hosts TBOX) running around with radios, ensuring that things stay under control.

    Luckily for us Lakeview residents, the amount of violence that happens here is significantly lower than Division and Clark, which is another hot spot in the city.

    I would be more worried about the gang war going on that is killing Chicagoans every weekend, if not every night, in neighborhoods such as Austin or Englewood, before you worry about a bunch of 25 year olds wishing they were still in college one night out of the year.

    Also note that TBOX means more business in Lakeview, leading to more sales tax revenue, which ends up benefiting us all. TBOX also sponsors these charities:

    http://www.festaparties.com/about/charities/

  • Wow well said Vlad

  • Mike C Wrigleyville Same Wrigleyville address since 1976

    Vlad, first off I moved to Wrigleyville in 1976, back then it was considered a gang neighborhood. In the 80's there was a moratorium on new liquor licences. So I did not choose this environment - it just blew up around me. I would love to get the heck out this rat hole but my hands and money are tied to the economy.

    Where do you get your facts that “the amount of violence that happens here (Wrigleyville) is significantly lower than Division and Clark”?

    I have been here for Bulls World Championships, Cubs division titles, White Sox World Series Champs, Gay parades, Market Days, and every St. Pats Day. But there is something about 43 bars opening their doors at 11:00 am to serve 30 to 50 thousand kids intent on getting drunk that is a recipe for disaster. I have seen TBOX get more and more out of control every year, it has become the worst of all. I really hope nothing tragic happens, I went outside and replaced the barricades protecting a 20 ft by 10 ft hole in the street. I am just making an observation. BTW I just came back from a stroll down Clark and saw no “Festa Parties” employees with radios. What I did see was a large CPD presence. Who is paying for that?

    It’s wonderful that the city and state are getting some sales tax and the Charities are given a bone also, but the real money makers here are the bar owners - most who do not live here. At what cost?

  • Actually Mike, some opened as early as 8am, and it is a fun event for charity. Maybe lighten up, be entertained by the goings on and go with the flow for the day...or maybe it's time to find a new neighborhood.

  • Mike,

    I love this city, and I love our neighborhood. I'm sorry to hear that you're tied financially to a neighborhood you don't want to live in. Although there is always a high cost of moving (emotional, financial, and even the large time commitment), the nuisance and stress of living in a "rat hole" might be worth looking around for a new place. There is a market for foreclosed condominiums that are being sold at low rates. You could put your Lakeview property on the market and see what offers you get.

    I read an article in the Chicago Tribune about the frequent calls that CPD recieve to break up fights outside the bars on Divison. While I cannot find that article at the moment, the City of Chicago Data Portal[1] provides crime statistics from 2001 to the present. They are listed by neighborhood. Aggregating the counts of battery, assault, homicide, criminal sexual assault, and prostitution, the "Near North Side" had 325 counts in the past 365 days. Lakeview had 176 counts.

    Last year, Fest Parties posted on their website: "Festa Parties will have a Public Safety team of over 40 security professional outside every TBOX Bar we have reserved all day for the TBOX Schedule."[2] The contract last year was with SafeGuard Resources.[3][4]

    This year, they posted, "We have a team of over 65 Security Professionals on site at the bar entrances."[5] The ones I saw this year were dressed in costume, with Santa hats and Red Pants, potentially blending in with the crowd.

    I'm sorry to hear that you think it's such a great burden on our wonderful neighborhood to host fun events for the younger residents of Chicago.

    Sources:
    [1] https://data.cityofchicago.org/Public-Safety/Crimes-2001-to-present/ijzp-q8t2
    [2] http://www.festaparties.com/2011/12/06/tbox-teams-we-will-not-split-you-up-from-your-friends/
    [3] https://www.festaparties.com/2011/10/14/the-tbox2011-schedule-is-here/
    [4] http://www.safeguardresources.com/
    [5] https://www.festaparties.com/2012/10/16/tboxopoly-is-here/

  • Neighbor Mom involved in my communities

    If anyone out there (whether pro or against the event) thinks it would be a good idea to increase police next year, please call the alderman and event organizers.

  • A man makes valid concerns and then is bullied by the likes of kimmie and vlad telling him to get out of a neighborhood he's lived in for 36 years. Really nice attitude! I really sympathasize with the man having to live in what has become a living hell for anyone with a brain.

  • Robn, I really don't intend to bully Mike. In fact, I strongly disapprove of bullying, and encourage mediation in any situation.

    In this situation, I tried to alleviate Mike's negative attitude by gently point out the safety attempts of the organizers, and the positive social externalities of the event, while in the context of the neighborhood dynamic. Mike asked where I got my information, and I provided my sources for him, and other concerned neighbors, such that they could be informed on the facts.

    Mike's response to my attempt to point out positive externalities in a changed neighborhood was that the neighborhood "blew up" around him and that he would "LOVE to get the HECK out of this RAT HOLE." (emphasis added)

    Mike blantantly brought up his desire to leave, not Kimmie, and nor did I.

    What is a public nuisance to few is a benefit and a pleasure to the many. This is evident by all of the new leases every day in Lake View. The modern and vibrant atmosphere that is growing is making Lake View increasingly more attractive to younger communities that used to target the Gold Coast and Lincoln Park. For property owners in Lake View, this means that property values are increasing.

    I have no control over the neighborhood, but it seems this is the trend. I love my neighborhood and try to be as neighborly as I can. Mike said he's really miserable, and the best advice I can offer him is that there are other options where he can live a happier life. That's the best I can do for him. :(

  • I believe your thought about Kimmie and Vlad is incorrect, I have been reading the string of comments and "the man" as you wrote appears to have concerns which are above and beyond this event, in reading the opposing comments I believe Vlad and Kimmie were making valid points and presenting options that maybe that maybe he never thought of...just saying

  • Vlad I believe your thoughts and comments were quite respectful and actually I am going to use some of the resources you put out there, thanks!

  • Alex M. Jeff Park, web design, DJ, thinker

    I can understand the frustration of longtime residents of an area when the bar scene gets so insane that you're dealing with drunken delinquents all the time.

    Unfortunately, I notice that in many popular areas, the numbers of those wanting the drunken debauchery are outnumbering those who don't. For every one person who would like the drinking holidays slowed or stopped, plenty more attack the "party poopers".

    This is one big reason I chose to live in Jefferson Park...away from that scene.

    I think it's worse how the shortage of police causes precincts to make choices between corralling drunks or busting gang bangers.

    Only thing I can say is if enough people are mad, then give the Alderman and the venues enough hell to change it. They did in the Halsted/Lake area with posting videos online.

    Beating Wrigleyville though I can't see happening.

  • @RobnH2O "living hell" kind of used loosely here, found a far better example on the front page of cnn.com/world in less than 5 seconds.

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/05/world/meast/syria-aleppo-underground/index.html?hpt=wo_t4

    just a bit of perspective.

  • Robinh2o, at no point was my intent to bully anyone and while part of me wants to argue the incendiary nature of your post, perhaps i should just elaborate on my opinion. Fact of the matter is that this area of the city is well known throughout much more then just the suburbs, as a well known party neighborhood, and while I sympathize that mike has been here longer then that reputation, another fact is this: neighborhoods change. And with that change, expectations of what is expected and allowed on certain fake "holidays" must adjust as well. We live in a city that is forever changing and redefining itself as something more exciting and fresh and new, and it happens in different neighborhoods at different times in many different ways. While you don't have to love and embrace the reality of the change, it sounds as though someone like mike, against his current desires, is in it for now. Wouldn't it be easier and healthier to accept and embrace it? If a day like today is really so incredibly bothersome, use it as an excuse to leave the neighborhood for the day- especially during a beautiful holiday season that the entire city of Chicago embraces. Surely there was something going on somewhere in the city today that would have been so very enjoyable.

  • Mike C Wrigleyville Same Wrigleyville address since 1976

    Hey Kimmie, if you think TBOX is "a fun event for charity" I suggest you are mistaken. The bar owners have to have a pretense to make this palatable. Sure some money goes to charity but most of the profits from the bars is going to the owners - not to charity. Please do not describe this drunken event as a charity drive.

  • I hesitate to weigh in given the tenor of some of the comments, but here goes: I haven't attended TBOX, but know some who do, and my understanding is that is has grown exponentially in the past few years. This, in turn, leads to more potentially concerns and trouble. Festa does have its own security, police presence is heightened, and the bars and bar/restaurants involved have virtually their entire staffs and security folks working.

    The references to "kids" and "college students" dot a lot of these posts. This is actually a 21+ event, strictly enforced, and the crowd is largely aged mid 20s to mid 30s. Gather that many folks and involve alcohol and the holiday spirit and there will be potential for something to go wrong, but I think the benefits outweigh the detriments.

    On this otherwise random winter Saturday, many local establishments and their workers made a good bit of money they otherwise wouldn't have had, and beside the positive tax implications for the city, those workers are, in turn, like to spend their extra earnings in the city. TBOX this year added more bars, which initially might sound bad, but actually it was done to spread out the crowd and make the event less concentrated in a few overwhelmed establishments. There were 40# bars involved this year, including 2 gay bars on Halsted - yay inclusivity!

    I also like that this is held during the day and early evening as opposed to at night - again, minimizing many risks. I do recommend that Clark Street actually be closed down for TBOX. I think there's too much risk of folks running across the street with cars in play.

    I didn't participate in TBOX, but I've considered it. Instead, though, I took the advice of one poster and did other stuff al day in the city, including lunch downtown and a movie in the South Loop.

    I hope this provides only some perspective, and I respect everyone's thoughts too, so no need to fire arrows at me! Have a great Sunday and Go Bears!

  • Alex M. Jeff Park, web design, DJ, thinker

    John, I think the references to "kids" and "college students" is more about maturity and mentality, not physical age. ;)

  • Robin...living hell? Think that statement through.

    Mike, you are right. You shouldn't adapt to your surroundings like most things on Earth. The entire neighborhood should adapt to you. Also, you said it was a gang neighborhood when you moved here, and you CHOSE it that way. So now it has evolved to a festive drunk atmosphere with shenanigans and you want it to go back to turf wars with homicides, drugs and gun trafficking?

    I moved to Wrigleyville several years ago with little knowledge of what goes on around here. Some of it got on my nerves (especially the parking during Cubs and snow season) but I learned to adapt and it doesn't bother me anymore. That's just how it is.

    Learn to flow like water friend. You'll enjoy life a lot more.

  • Mike C Wrigleyville Same Wrigleyville address since 1976

    Thanks for the profound wisdom Lemon. Where did you get the idea I am trying to change the entire neighborhood? My original comment was to point out how this one particular event has gotten out of control, kinda like this thread. My reference to rat hole neighborhood was exactly that, there are rats freaking everywhere. That is something relatively new and one thing I would like to change.

    Here is some wisdom for you, don’t put words in other people’s mouths - it might bite you someday friend.

  • SLP Young Professional

    I think it's sad that old people in this city don't appreciate how young people enjoy having fun and going out. It's a shame how judgmental old people can be about these types of events. And we have to support them with Social Security!!

  • sly-3 donkey wrangler to the stars

    lets dial back the rhetoric and focus on solutions.

    1. bar owners are responsible for what happens in their establishments.
    - that means preventing.over-serving customers and over-crowding (where
    was the fire marshal satuday?).
    2. the organizers are responsible for what happens as a result of their event
    - that includes hiring private security (i did see a few off-duty officers, however
    they were completely overwhelmed) and street cleanup (during and after).
    3. cpd is responsible for arresting criminals (there was no shortage of those,
    including trespassing, public urination, destruction of property, drunk & disorderly,
    and likely a few thefts, etc).
    4. YOU are responsible for contacting any and all of these re: your concerns on this
    event. if a bar is causing problems, run it up the chain of command. if a wasted elf
    is peeing on your building, call a cop.

    i have no doubt that festa wants to run a successful event and your feedback will help guide that.

  • Haha, typical Everyblock thread. Vlad responds to someone with sourced well written information and he gets attacked for bullying. I think some of you just need to stick to worrying about lost cats.

  • Alex M. Jeff Park, web design, DJ, thinker

    I get your point SLP...but this is why my solution to those who complain is to "give up and move". Move to an area that might be "boring", but isn't full of bars and the drunks who come from them. Rent your old house or condo out to young people who want to party every weekend and simply find your quiet neighborhood where you'll never deal with it.

    I know many hate that notion, with the usual "why do I have to concede? why can't I fight?" but I more say to find that quiet area and then put up a fight when some businessmen come wanting a late-night liquor license for whatever "nice place" they claim they're making.

    This is why I'd rather fight to keep Eddie Carranza and others from using the Portage Theater in my area from becoming a loud insane concert hall, or why I'd sign petitions to not allow a big parking garage in Jeff Park which will allow the Copernicus Center to hold metal and rap shows...but I won't sit there trying to push WrigleyVille, Lake View, Wicker Park, Lincoln Park, or the Viagra Triangle to have less drunken debauchery.

    SLP...I think this is the usual conflict of people who move to what they think is a "fun" area, but then later wish it could become quieter or "family friendly". I remember back 10-15 years ago when all the nightclubs on Fulton St near Halsted were pushed out by the yuppies who suddenly wanted a quieter spot to live...when they moved there fully knowing it was full of nightclubs.

  • TMH

    the fact of the matter is that these type of events will continue to happen until something serious occurs that causes the event to be cancelled (someone is killed or some building violation puts a lot of people at risk as a result).

    The normal transgressions that occur during cubs games in the summer will be dealt with but will be allowed to happen at this type of event as well, i.e. public drunkenness, trespassing, public urination, destruction of property, drunk & disorderly conduct. The reason is simple; money! this event brings money into the area. As a result there will allows be a tolerance for illegal activity as long as it remains mostly minor and under relative control.

    Of course the event has grown over the years. the first few bars that particiated in this event saw an uptick in their revenues so more and more barsjoined over the years to get their slice of the pie. And of course any activity that allows open drunkenness from 8 am until 3 am is going to be mobbed by the young masses.

    I say go get drunk, live it up, stumble home. its a part of living in a lively neighborhood. As I mentioned it no big difference from a daytime Cubs game!

    Lets Go Bears!

  • BeenThere

    I can honestly say this event didn't effect me in anyway as I was gone for most of it, but....

    1. There are way too many events in this area that block traffic, disrupt daily routines, etc. Some people do work on the weekends (have to due to the economy), aren't still living flop-house style 3 years after graduating college.....and, well, have things to do. If you want to uphold these condo values that are declining rapidly, you're not going to attract mature, responsible people to the area to buy them at whatever price when you want to flee. I'm not the party-pooper here and like to have fun myself but, again, you have way too many of these drunk fests for this area to uphold the respect it seems to believe it's entitled to. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

    2. I'm tired of the word "charity" thrown onto everything in this town too. We're not stupid.

    3. 30's & pushing 50-somethings oogling and probably participating? Grow up.

    4. Also tired of the word "holiday" substituted for Christmas so as not to offend or unnerve. This was clearly an Xmas titled event (that word is bad enough) but then to dilute it further with "holiday"is insulting. I saw elves and santas running around, not menorahs on wheels or Kwanzaa kites. PC people? If you really had a cause and were so compassionate, make sure this piss fest is re-titled for next year. Anything for a $ though. I'm not religious. Quit patronizing "white" people and their beliefs/customs.

    5. Gay bars participating in something like this now? Besides the rampant crime, this is also why your business is dwindling. It's great to make a $ of the latest trend but you should probably be reminded where you came from. You can most certainly tell times are hard now.

    6. Before another thread is posted on EB about the persistent problem with dog poop attracting rats, I'm quite certain puddles of puke left all over do too. Someone has to take responsibility for this.

  • Lisa 7th generation Chicagoan, woot woot.

    There's a difference between having an event and people getting drunk and having fun, and having an event where people leave and become downright destructive to the neighborhood - knocking over trash cans and signs, whipping wooden chairs at people's cars (yes, that happened - hope it wasn't *your* car Vlad!)

    I worked a local Chamber of Commerce that put on large neighborhood events and will say there is a HUGE difference between events like Pride and events like TBOX in that Pride organizers are held liable for anything that goes on during their event. They have insurance, permits, clean-up crew, barricades, etc. With events like TBOX, do you know who does the post-event clean-up? People like Mike who actually have a vested interest in the neighborhood and didn't just move here post-college with the idea that it's acceptable to act like a disrespectful, destructive barn animal.

    Remember, if it wasn't for people like Mike and others who have lived here for decades and helped turn the neighborhood around, it wouldn't be the neighborhood you enjoy today.

  • 1- Put simply- The large majority of attendees of this event don’t care about the neighborhood. At all. Give a close and honest look at the majority of the behavior for 5 minutes and the facts before you just won’t bear it out.

    2- Whether or not individuals who descend on the neighborhood themselves personally enjoy it doesn't mean that those people who do live in/ contribute to the neighborhood are required to cater to the lowest common denominator of demographics.

    3- Is the “if you don’t like it you can move” argument the most vacuous, childish, and overused excuse in the history of comments sections? Do we really think that that is a constructive argument against the people who live and work in the community trying to make it the best reflection of the things that they most value? Or against them taking what they feel to be appropriate measures to combat what is essentially tacitly approved- if not categorically illegal- at least, borderline illegal behavior? Positing that line of argument doesn't demonstrate maturity, it belies it.

    4- It doesn't really matter what context you put it in; unsafe, disrespectful, and destructive behavior is not beneficial for anyone.

  • SLP Young Professional

    Sounds like someone may be a bit of a racist beenthere. So sad.

  • BeenThere, an event that's required for people to go to, such as a mandatory public school event, needs to be considerate of all religions and holidays. But anyone can have an optional event for any one specific religion. I can have a Kwanza party without having to label it as a Christmas or Hannukah party.

    The fact that nobody dressed as a menorah could be that a menorah costume would be too bulky, too expensive (since it's bigger and requires more fabric and structure/support), or maybe because the event was just attended by more Christian people. In no way should Christians have to dress in Menorahs just so that the costumes at an optional event are evenly split between all possible holidays. Further, TBOX did in no way require for someone participating to be a Christian, and sold tickets to plenty of people that celebrate Hannukah or maybe even others. I have Jewish friends that attended this year's TBOX with no complaints about the name not mentioning Hannukah.

    The Jewish population of Cook County is 8% of the total Cook County population. [1]

    After you argued for non-discrimination of holidays, you argued that gay bars should not participate, which confused me. I don't see why any bar can't join the festivities. Crowds are easier to control if spread over a larger area, and more bars means more staff that can control a situation.

    [1] http://www.city-data.com/county/religion/Cook-County-IL.html

  • Lisa, I don't own a car. That's a personal choice I made, taking into account the wonderful public transportation in this city, and the awful parking conditions in Lakeview. As part of the parking problem, there is a problem of car theft, as well as damage. It's a risk of parking on a public street anywhere, although the risk is higher in bigger cities, since there are higher numbers of criminals per square mile (due to the higher population density).

    It sucks that people's cars get damaged. It really does. But, the social solution to this problem can be either preventing the problem by bolting down chairs and baseball bats and anything that could cause damage, OR it could be mitigating the damage afterwards. This can be done by filing an insurance claim. Your insurance company already charges you a higher premium if you park on the street in a major city, relative to if you parked the same car in a locked garage, or a garage with an attendant and surveillance cameras. That higher premium goes towards fixing your car when someone damages it.

  • Carter O'Brien Chicagoan

    As someone who grew up a mile from the park in the 70s and 80s, I sympathize with Mike but agree with Alex. Clark Street has been a major night life strip since the 19th century, the street (and economic) action is hardly a new development, the urban flight that led to the gang activity is a historical aberration, not the baseline.

  • I love reading this thread.

  • Mike C Wrigleyville Same Wrigleyville address since 1976

    OK, talk about getting off topic, social security SLP! I have provided for my retirement myself and I am not counting on the social security that I paid into.

    Now on to the current topic. I have been stupid drunk too, and may have puked and peed in an alley - that is not the major problem with TBOX, it goes with the territory in Wrigleville. But what I do have a problem with is the vandalism, fighting, and drunk/buzzed driving - which abounds around the TBOX event. My original comment was about a bunch of drunk santa’s removing construction barricades from a 10 by 20 foot hole in the street at the corner of Cornelia and Seminary. That’s not funny, it’s down right dangerous and very illegal. I find it sad that some young people seem to find this behavior tolerable and even funny - the santa’s found it hilarious. I thought about calling 911 but how could I identify the santa’s among the multitudes. I did put the barricades back myself. They were gone again this morning.

    SLP if you call me judgmental so be it. However I have every right to voice my concerns about a particular event that affects me directly. The good news is that TBOX is over for this year and nothing terribly tragic happened - at least that I know of.

  • Alex M. Jeff Park, web design, DJ, thinker

    I only push the idea of moving when I see people naively moving into areas loaded with bars, but then they complain. I personally think anyone moving into WV or LV should know better now.

    For the longtime residents and the stubborn, might I suggest taking more action like this site:

    http://lakeandhalsted.com/

    Stand vigilant, take photos/videos of the bad behavior, piss off some idiots when they get their photo taken, post it online to embarrass them, and attend community meetings to continually push the case.

    Granted the bar owners will use more influence to win battles, but that site I posted did win the war.

  • File an insurance claim? That’s your answer to the deluge of poor behavior?

    That is what carjacking thieves say to their victims; not a group of sincere people who are out for a genuine good time.

    And your “bolting everything down” or the alternative is a false choice that- very unfortunately again- skirts the real issue; very basic and fundamental personal accountability measures.

    I’d encourage you to rethink your position to a more constructive one.

  • I just don't see the value in acquiescing to aspects and elements that are so bereft of any value or merit. It is more encouraging to see people engage their fellow residents and take productive measures to make their neighborhood vibrant, safe, and livable.

    I also don't see the naivete in someone basically saying that they don't want illegal (disrespectful, dangerous, destructive) activity to occur in their neighborhood. It is hard for me to knock that person. There is nothing unreasonable about that to me, no matter what the context, geography, or timing. And I don't accept "well, deal with it or move" as the only two choices.

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  • Joan M. Back in Lincoln Square and liking it.

    Gosh, I hope the Red Ivy wasn't one of the participating establishments:
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-chicago-crime-wrigleyville-stabbing,0,3988952.story
    Be sure to read to the end of the story.

  • Wow. This thread has re-defined mudslinging. I'm unsubscribing.

  • Jeff, I agree that unreasonable behavior should not be tolerated, nor do I condone illegal activity. I'm simply suggesting that the people that proximately cause the damage should be responsible, and not the event planners of an event, nor the bar owners or staff.

    I meant to state that it is impossible to protect everyone all of the time from others' intentional physical conduct, such as damage of property. If someone wants to smash a chair into a car, they're going to do it whether a bartender serves them, whether someone plans a barcrawl, or whether they drink in their own home. There will always be physical objects that can be used to break people's property, and it is impossible to prevent this harm by means of any policy.

    You CAN prevent it by stopping those actors from damaging the property if you see them. You CAN hold them liable to their actions.

    I'm not saying that people SHOULD be allowed to pee on buildings or that people SHOULD be allowed to puke in public.

    I'm saying that the event planners and the bar should not be held liable for other people's intentional conduct.

    As for the insurance claim, I meant to say that you are already paying a higher premium for not parking in a garage, and that it is covered.

    I agree with Jeff that personal accountability is the solution.

  • Mike C Wrigleyville Same Wrigleyville address since 1976

    Joan what an interesting article, I guess it was just kids having fun. (wrigleyville stabbing article)

    Vlad maybe the injured guy can call his insurance company if he has one, but please do not sue the bar or event planners - even though it sounds as if this guy was a little over served.

  • Note that although I personally don't think bar owners should be liable, in Illinois they are. So you could sue a bar owner for providing liquor to someone if they hurt you or your property.

    235 ILCS 5/6-21

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  • Robn, I don't work for Festa. I'm just a neighbor. I moved the area BECAUSE it was fun and vibrant. I don't condone violence, I don't condone any damage to property, and like Jeff, support personal accountability.

    In the "grown up world," bars are liable legally. But, as a neighbor, I promote personal accountability. Mike also has asked that you don't sue the event planners nor the bar.

    I never told anyone to "deal or move," but told Mike that IF he wants to move but CANNOT for strictly economic reasons, he could look at foreclosures.

    I also never meant that insurance was the only solution, but merely pointed out that you can't always stop people from doing evil. I also pointed out that people that own cars and don't own garages or pay for parking spots in garages DO pay more in insurance already, and it is often a temporary solution.

    I agree with Jeff that personal accountability is key, and with Mike that we shouldn't be suing the bar owners or event planners.

    I'm sorry if any of my suggestions upset you.

    Oh, and I'm not looking to be a defense attorney.

  • I agree that if someone is hellbent on doing something destructive, they'll find a way to do it.

    Creating an environment of easy access for that genre of behavior though should be avoided, not fostered.

    I also think that if certain activities/events/establishments are found to be particularly conducive to or facilitative of an inordinate amount of what we'll just loosely define as "bad things", then there can and should be proper, measured, and correspondingly congruent repercussions.

    Finally, we all know that the proximate cause of destructive behavior doesn't start and stop with the patron/consumer. Many a revoked liquor license can speak to this point. Not to mention IL statutes which do hold commercial vendors liable for injuries/property damage caused by intoxicated customers if they serve liquor to him/her after he was visibly intoxicated

    (p.s. - this is mudslinging? is that a serious statement?)

  • thanks for finding the statute, vlad. you were quicker than i.

  • sly-3 donkey wrangler to the stars

    for the curious, this is from the 2012 t-box.

    http://goo.gl/aW8ao

    i believe the fellows in the blue vests are affiliated with the event. be sure to note their ineffectiveness to keep idiots out of the street and from wandering into traffic.

    1. CPD should close clark from addison to newport.
    2. festa should pay for extra uniformed police (NOT off-duty) and a post-event cleaning
    crew.
    3. the CFD should have a fire marshal inspect every bar during the event for violations.

    this event should be held with the same regard to safety as market days, pride, etc. (if not more so since it's only focus is to get wasted) and, it only takes 1 fire, 1 shooting, 1 mistake to cause a tragedy.

  • I'm all for personal accountability...that should come first. But that doesn't mean the event organizers and bar owners don't have culpability. Security needs to be a lot stronger next year, and that cost should go entirely to the organizers...not the tax payers.

  • Mike C Wrigleyville Same Wrigleyville address since 1976

    Vlad what I said about not sueing the bar owners was said with tongue in cheek. I guess I should have made that clear. They are indeed liable.

  • Robin, not that I need to defend myself to you, but I'm a 34 year old, married teacher who is pregnant. I attended yesterday's pub crawl with my husband and our good friends and had just as much fun as I've had in the past, I felt safe and at no point did I feel as though I had put myself in an unsafe situation. While I'm sure that wasn't the case everywhere and throughout the day and night, it was for the short time I attended. There are always going to be bad eggs that spoil what should just be a fun time, as there were yesterday. The only difference between it and things like opening day at wrigley were the types of costumes worn. Both your first and second assumptions of me were off, based on what seems to solely be our differing of opinion on this matter. I ask you, who is behaving like a bully now?

    Happy holidays, everyone- lets try to embrace the spirit if the season as opposed to attacking each other on a post that long ago became a tad bit ridiculous.

  • SLP Young Professional

    Kimmie should you be drinking if pregnant? Not sure that's very responsible.

  • Sigh. You can't be serious, SLP. I suppose you think pregnant women should never leave the house? I'm done with you people. You are all a bunch crazy narrow minded meany pants.

  • Alex M. Jeff Park, web design, DJ, thinker

    We're all giving plenty of commentary on Wrigleyville, but I'm curious how far into Lake View did the antics spread?

  • Carter O'Brien Chicagoan

    We saw folks from 900 - 1200 west Belmont en masse at about 11 am. Saw a few folks west to about Ashland, but they have been on the move heading east.

  • Carter O'Brien Chicagoan

    argh, danged iPad... meant to say *may* have been on the move heading east.

  • SLP, did you know that you can enter a bar without having a drink? It's a whole new paradigm, you should try it.

  • April in Lincoln Square resident 22 years

    Next year, pray for lousy weather.

  • JW

    Hmm... I'm 53 and that sounded like a fun event to me. Maybe next year they could start some sort of TBOX old timers crawl. Except the T would probably stand for 2 rather than 12.

    I'm also wondering what Vlad accomplished yesterday besides replying to everyone else's messages? Not much, me thinks.

  • Mike C Wrigleyville Same Wrigleyville address since 1976

    I just got back from the Alderman’s office and spoke with his aid Erin Duffy. She informed me that the Alderman is upset with Festa entertainment because they did not live up to their part of the agreement, she did not get into specifics but did mention something about too many TBOX tickets were sold. I have been told it was 25,000. That is more than the total allowed occupancy for all the bars. Festa is also planning a Madri Gras themed pub crawl in February and another baseball themed pub crawl in April or May. Seems like if Festa could find a reason there would be a pub crawl weekly.

  • MayorOf47 W. Lakeview/Roscoe Village

    And fuel to the fire...
    http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20121209/wrigleyville/santa-bar-crawl-stabbing-victim-bled-so-much-it-was-like-friday-13th

    It does seem like it is getting too big for it's own good. BUT this story could have happened if it were 100 people, or on any other night of the year.

  • Alex M. Jeff Park, web design, DJ, thinker

    My final thought:

    1) The drunken frat boy-style debauchery in Wrigleyville isn't going to stop. Too many have too much money invested (including the Ricketts family) to see it end. Not unless we see something huge like a full scale riot with deaths.

    2) If Festa is looking to do more of this and the residents have issue...then speak up. Look at the Lake/Halsted site I posted earlier as an example. Go to your CAPS meetings and speak up, take photos, record videos, post them, and continue the assault until the promoters and bars take more responsibility for the behavior of their customers.

  • Mike C Wrigleyville Same Wrigleyville address since 1976

    Hey Alex, I have not checked the web site you recommend but will shortly. Believe me the neighbors have been very actively complaining to the Alderman. I have taken photos and taken video and posted to YouTube. I have been to liquor commission meetings at city hall and met with the police at the Alderman’s office. It appears to me that the Alderman is reluctant to act because of the big money issue. The nuclear option has been floated - vote the precinct dry. If a petition is circulated and enough people sign, the vote dry would be on the next general election ballot. If half the voters who vote in the election are for voting it dry - it’s a done deal - Sate of Illinois law. There are 746 registered voters in the 38th precinct, ward 44. 639 voted in the November 2012 election. A large majority of the housing in the 38th precinct are condominiums and home owners are beginning to worry about decreasing property values because of all the nonsense associated with the bars on Clark street.

  • Alex M. Jeff Park, web design, DJ, thinker

    Definitely check out http://lakeandhalsted.com/

    Way back I was hired to do the website for Chromium Nightclub, and its owner had asked me one day if I knew how to hack and destroy a website. I said "no" because I honestly couldn't...and didn't want to risk falling into a criminal life.

    The site was run by a few residents who bought lofts on the street and at first had no issue with some of the clubs/bars in the area, but they were getting out of control. They would post photos/videos of gang fights and other drunken violence that would happen weekly (because many of those clubs pandered to gang bangers).

    Eventually the Alderman and Police kept a closer eye and many places ended up losing their licenses because of the repeat problems.

    I just think that while I can't see Wrigleyville bars getting shut down, I can see some real hardcore neighborhood action causing the bad elements to get fined, plus someone on YouTube or elsewhere shown pissing on someone's lawn or throwing wooden chairs or whatever else will embarrass them enough to calm down when drinking.

    No guarantees...but sometimes you need to show the drunken douches on the net to simply prove the point and drive it home.

    Memorable moments like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqFuF2E9cwA

  • Where do you get the figures that property values in Lakeview are decreasing? Trulia.com is a real estate website that conveniently provides statistical trends on average prices by week, month, and year. They started tracking Lakeview in 2009, so the long-term analysis may not be there, but recently, home prices (based on their listings) seem to have been increasing.

    This past month's average listing prices, by Week ending on:
    Nov 28 - $478,526 (3% increase)
    Nov 21 - $464,561
    Nov 14 - $453,269
    Nov 7 - $449,597

    They also show a 38.2% increase from last year's average of $318,750 in August, compared to this august at $440,500.

    http://www.trulia.com/real_estate/Lakeview-Chicago/2923/market-trends/

  • Mike C Wrigleyville Same Wrigleyville address since 1976

    Vlad I am not talking about the entire Lakview area, only one small precinct that abuts up to Clark street. I do not have any hard figures just a sense from talking to my neighbors and a realtor friend. A few have talked about selling in the spring. In my post I said “the home owners are beginning to worry about decreasing property values”. The activity on Clark street has been getting exponentially worse every year. Prospective buyers are beginning to take notice of this and would rather live a few blocks away rather than right on top of this madness.

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