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Added Mar 20 2012

I alternately take the Diversey or Belmont bus to the Blue Line, but lately have been taking Belmont. After we cruise through the intersection of Belmont and Milwaukee, any time around 7-8 a.m., there's always a ton of guys outside Dunkin Donuts and the gas station on the corner. Anyone know what's going on? I assume they might be waiting for some sort of transportation, but not of the CTA variety.

  • I Heart PPark I Heart Portage Park and love the quirky stuff..

    I could be wrong, but I think they are looking for construction jobs or any kind of manual labor job. Not sure why that specific corner has that going on.

  • It appears to me to be an informal day labor site.

    -jbn

  • Francis Resident of Avondale

    I've been told those are bunch of people looking for work (construction, painting, landscaping, etc). There a few that also hang out by the Valero on Belmont and Kimball and at the home depot nearby. I don't know if it's true but apparently a lot of them are illegals.

  • Renee Former Logan'er, current Belmont Gardens homeowner

    Very interesting. I was thinking along those lines..I'm pretty curious about how that whole process works. People that need help for the day know that there might be help for hire at D.D./gas station, just drive by and hand pick some guys? I also noticed, whilst walking by after work last night that there are a bunch of 'no loitering' signs on the fence outside D.D.

  • They look for temporary labor work, construction mostly.

  • Construction and landscaping crews often frequent such sites. I used some day labor for doing yard cleanup when I lived in Baltimore. One time I got a fellow back to my house and he saw the work and said he wasn't interested. I took him back and found someone else. It was a bit of an odd experience, but really worked quite well.

  • Those men are mainly undocumented immigrants from Mexico, Puerto Rico etc. Day labor, off-the-books. That corner is a well known pick-up location. You'll see potential employers cruising past, stopping and negotiating terms.

  • How are puerto ricans undocumented? They come in n out as they please because they need no passport.
    The main guys mostly there are polish guys and hispanics(not just mexicans)

  • Yes, you are correct about the Puerto Ricans. My mistake. You are incorrect, however, about most of those men being Polish. This topic has been discussed a lot at CAPS meetings. It is true that Avondale has problems with both Polish and Latino populations. The primary problem with the Polish has been the street drunks. The area literally turned into a kind of Skid Row, and the Polish merchants along Milwaukee have been enabling the drunks rather than helping them. We (the Neighborhood Association) went after the liquor stores that were selling to them. One of them closed altogether, and the others altered their ways for fear of losing their liquor licenses. Many of the drunks subsequently moved south a few blocks, buying at Danny's.

    The 30th ward (Ald. Ariel Reboyras) is gerrymandered for Latinos, and I am told by my Latino neighbors that fully half in the area are undocumented. Language is a big issue. This is a primary reason that Reboyras remains in office. The constituents don't vote. They can find construction work at the Shell station at Milwaukee and Belmont.

  • VictorPaul Logan Square Resident

    @EdHooks Don't forget about the undocumented Polish too.

  • Alonso Born and raised in the Cragin neighborhood.

    They are undocumented not illegal, but we can all disagree on language. I actually had a conversation with 2 of them just yesterday. One was a Bulgarian immigrant that came to the U.S. because he needed to raise money to buy land back home for his family. He is a carpenter in Bulgaria and speaks 3 languages. The other is a West African man named Ceaser. Ceaser came from West Africa 5 years ago to attend UIC and earn his Certified Public Accounting degree. But his scholarship was cut off one year before he graduated and he's spent the last year trying to save enough money as a day laborer to pay for tuition. His visa doesn't allow him to legally work. He speaks English, French, Spanish and knows about European and Western foreign affairs. They make around $8.25 an hour doing construction or temporary jobs in whatever temperature and often go days without being offered work. The Bulgarian and West African actually became best friends and are sharing an apartment near there.

    The whole corner looks shady and unkempt, but many of these human beings are there to work and provide for their family. There are some that drink and loiter, but lumping all of them into the same negative basket isn't fair.

  • Alonso, your point is well taken. It is challenging to keep separate the many issues we face in Chicago in general and Avondale in specific. I share your respect for people who are trying to make a better life and to support their families. In fact, if I was king, I would open the doors wider to immigrants. It is a monumental waste of money to do what we have been doing along the Mexican border.

    At one of the CAPS meetings, I asked Sgt. Weigland what the demographic breakdown is in the area. You can't fix something if you can't identify it, yes? He and the other cops just laughed at my naivete. "It is against the law to ask them," he explained. We do not officially know what the make up is. There are plenty of unofficial estimates, and you can get those by asking around. So that is what I started doing, in my own mainly-Latino neighborhood (Hamlin and Wellington). There is no question that the majority of the undocumented immigrants here are Latino. Yes, there are some Polish, but nothing even close to the Latino migration. Chicago is a "sanctuary city" after all. Heck, if I lived in Mexico, I would head this direction, too! Better schools, accessible health care, an almost-assurance of not being sent back. Day labor at $8 per hour does not look so bad if you have been living the life some of those guys have.

    Anyway, you need to know you are not talking to a bigot. I understand the problem, but the system in Chicago government makes it very near intractable.

  • As many have mention the men in that specific intersection are day laborers. Both businesses D.D and the gas station have permitted these men (of all different ethnicities, race and skin color, and educational backgrounds)  to congregate and seek employment for years  close to 8 yrs. Before the D.D was remodeled, I have often stop in the mornings to pump up on gas and not once have I felt threatened. Not sure if safety was an underlying concern in your post. The area in the intersection is not trashed as one would think (insert imagine of street festivals). I am sure both business and those men make sure to tidy the place.

  • Feats I was a Punk before you were a Punk

    Alonso, if they are undocumented ,I believe that means they are here illegally ....otherwise they would have documents ..right ?/

  • fenn .

    Not following the relevance of CAPS. My experience is that the Eastern Europeans wait along Milwaukee while the Hispanics stand a little east of that. As a contractor they've never hassled me when I pull in for gas. About three years back a fellow tradesman told me that corner was being watched by immigration. He claimed contractors were being pulled over a few blocks away after picking up workers. I never saw that myself and wondered its truth. Either way, I admire that many of these guys will be out there rain or shine ready to go. Its more than I can say about some I've worked alongside.

  • Renee Former Logan'er, current Belmont Gardens homeowner

    Veronica, I haven't worried about safety. Doesn't look like a dangerous bunch. I was just curious about the sheer number of people congregated at that location on any given morning.

  • These are guys waiting for temporary work/day labor. They have been meeting there for years.

  • Inactive user

    Alonso, how can you say they are not illegal but undocumented? ITS THE SAME THING. Stop being PC! Be HONEST, they're I-L-L-E-G-A-L. The truth will set you free. Illegal is illegal!! Stop trying to justify it. Buying land BACK HOME for their family? Sure, they are going to school but who is paying for it? We are! Whats FAIR about that? I feel bad their visas dont allow them to work, let them go back home to work then. This country was built on people working hard for their money, we have gotten LAZY and now, people think they are too good to do hard labor so they just turn a blind eye to the ILLEGAL behavior that surrounds us. Have you looked up the word ILLEGAL? There is no use of the word UNDOCUMENTED in the description. This is what is destroying this country from within. You can all ban me, report me, but you also must realize the truth of my statement. Be honest with yourselves.

    I want you all to understand I mean no disrespect in any way to any one. I am sure these people are very nice, hard workers and provide for their families. The situation our country is in right now is on a downward slope and the speed is increasing. PLEASE, take a step back and look very hard at our economy. If they are NOT illegal they have my blessings.

  • Renee Former Logan'er, current Belmont Gardens homeowner

    I didn't want to start a political discussion about this. Just was wondering what the situation was.

  • Alonso Born and raised in the Cragin neighborhood.

    Feats, I described the West African gentleman as having a visa. His is valid for 5 more years allowing him ample time to graduate or apply for a new one. Since his visa is valid currently, he wouldn't be considered "illegal" or "undocumented". There are also a number of American citizens working there on any given day because they have either been laid off of their jobs or need extra income. I don't have the ability to determine the legal status of people based just on looking at the color of their skin as I drive past them in my car.

  • Inactive user

    Sorry Renee...

    Alonso, just to be clear, I dont think anyone said you had the ability to determine legal status. I understand the desire to come to America for the opportunities this country provides for legal immigrants, but lets not blur the lines. Rules are rules, we all have to abide by them. Sorry if I upset anyone.

  • Feats I was a Punk before you were a Punk

    @ Alonso,...a visa is a document allowing you to be in this country legally .....

  • Alonso Born and raised in the Cragin neighborhood.

    Renee, these types of conversations are important as long as we stay respectful and actually learn something from it.

    Rob, I was being sarcastic about people having the ability to determine one's legal status just from looking at them. I should have made it more obvious. Nobody has that ability but many people think they do.

  • Alonso Born and raised in the Cragin neighborhood.

    You are correct Feats. The majority of new immigrants from any place in the world arrive with any variety of visas. Some go back when the visa expires, some renew them, and some settle in to the American way of life and completely forget about the expiring visa, and some just plain stay. I just don't like lumping every single person into one category.

  • I felt very gratified for your comments, Alonso: ". . . many of these human beings are there to work and provide for their family. There are some that drink and loiter, but lumping all of them into the same negative basket isn't fair." I have been aware of the group for the last 7 months since I have moved into the area from Dayton, Ohio. I do not feel unsafe or threatened when going in and out of DD. This is the city. Many many varied circumstances abound. Kindness and compassion must also abound -- along with common sense, of course . . . .

  • Inactive user

    Alonso, sorry, didnt catch the sarcasm. One sure fire way is to check ID's. In no way is THAT meant to be sarcastic OR racist. I think its a truthful comment. I am glad that we can have a civil discussion about it.

  • I am in favor of opening the gates for even more immigrants. Let them come and take their best shot just like our ancestors did. But let's not give them so many incentives.

  • Alonso Born and raised in the Cragin neighborhood.

    I am not a big fan of handouts, tax breaks for billionaires, loopholes for developers, etc.

    Checking Id's was attempted 70 years ago in Germany and Poland and that didn't go too well for those that were forced to carry identification. It also led to Japanese and many wrongly identified Asian U.S. citizens being sent to internment camps. Also, in the movie Born in East L.A., Paul Rodriguez was asked for his id because he looked "illegal" and was deported to Mexico and despite his facial features, he neither spoke Spanish nor was a Mexican citizen.

    I know these are extreme examples of what happenes when identification is required to be shown on public streets, but why try something today that didn't work in the past?

  • Germany was interested in genocide, Alonso. Nobody is talking about gassing the Latinos. It is simply good planning to be clear-eyed about the situation we are dealing with. Undocumented immigrants live in the shadows and have no rights. They are routinely exploited by slum lords and shady employers. We can't help them if we can't identify them.

  • OldIrving Anna on a quest for craft brewed "zimne piwo"

    The day laborers at Belmont/Milwaukee have been gathering there for over 25 years. The ethnicity of those seeking works depends on US immigration policy and the state of economies abroad.

    For those quick to say "but my ancestors came here legally", let me remind you that the U.S. let everyone in through Ellis Island unless they had some infectious disease until about the 1920's. That's when the U.S. Congress started imposing quotas, proportional to the ancestry of who was ALREADY in this country, i.e. British, German, Irish.

    Quite a different world today. Most Poles now elect to seek work in other EU countries, rather than coming to the US. Polish doctors get paid more in Germany than they do in Poland. Mexicans are staying home because of our high unemployment rate.

  • DB9

    Odd question though, regarding the large group and the business around, do you think that they help or deter business from these locations, specifically, the Dunkin Donuts, Burger King and the Gas Station?

    When I drive by the station during the early evening, it's packed with cars filling up; in the morning, it's empty. There are more guys standing around the pumps than cars.

    The Dunkin there, I've pulled up in my van and I had it surrounded almost causing an accident, me almost hitting one, he jumped right in front of me and a car almost rear ending me because I had to do a sudden stop. It can get a little dicey sometimes when cars are trying to get in and someone pulls up they think is a potential contractor.

  • Asking for identification to prove legal status would never work, because  if hypothetically I were ever to be asked to present proper documentation to identify my "legal status" you bet I would call Rainbow Push collision,  LULAC  (League of United Latin American Citizens) and NAACP,  I  would start a social media campaign (twitter, you tube, facebook, tumblr etc). Because as a citizen of this country I should not be ask to prove my legal status, regardless  of my ethnicity, race, surname. (Would you be ok with this?) This practice where police officers are stopping and asking for proper identification is occurring in Arizona. The INS recently deported an African American teenager (who was a run away) to Colombia. She was arrested and gave a false name to authority.  It matched that of a women who had been previously deported.  When she tried to explain who she really was, ICE was not having it. Yes, I agree those that are undocumented (not a US citizen or US resident) are living in a sub-culture that is ungoverned. It took the government years to realize that false passports, IDs, social security card were being sold in broad day light in certain parts if the city. It always seems the government is always 5 steps behind.

  • Alonso Born and raised in the Cragin neighborhood.

    It's not just Latinos Ed. It's a mixture of many different nationalities and races.

    I don't believe that every German officer that asked a Jewish person for their Kenkarte identification card knew that they were later going to gas the person, tattoo them, and commit genocide. But that is what happened to them. They just followed the laws required of them. It will begin with asking an "illegal" for an id and eventually, the majority will be used to that. Then the next person with a bright idea will ask for an "I" to be painted on the door of their house. The majority will become used to that too. Then the next bright idea will want them to all be rounded up and placed in buses or trains... again it's an exaggeration but if that happened once, it can happen again.

  • Veronica and Alonso, there is no difference between asking to see a person's ID on the street than asking a driver to show you his driver's license, or a dog owner to show his dog registration. One is supposed to have a license to be walking around and doing things in the U.S., and that license is called a visa. Nothing strange about that. And nobody is required to carry a visa around with them, just some sort of verifiable identification.

    And, Alonso, the Germans knew perfectly well what they were doing. It is not a good analogy to our problems with undocumented immigrants.

  • Alonso Born and raised in the Cragin neighborhood.

    There is a difference. There is no law in the U.S. Constitution requiring anyone to have an id on them when walking around in the streets. An officer has the right to ask a dog owner or a car driver for their driver's license or a dog license, but that is because Chicago requires people to have one. But if I don't drive or don't have a dog, I don't need to have a license. There is no requirement to have an id on you at all times.

    "One is supposed to have a license to be walking around and doing things in the U.S., and that license is called a visa." but then you follow up with "And nobody is required to carry a visa around with them, just some sort of verifiable identification." I think those two sentences are perfect contradictions.

    There are millions of people out there that don't have legal identification. Laws may vary in different cities and states but none require you to have one. Someone that doesn't drive will never need to buy a driver's license. Someone that lives in a rural area and can't afford a state id, doesn't need one either. Actually, there are many people in certain states that want people to show a state id in order for someone to vote. This type of law targets minorities, the poor, the disabled, and other constituencies because state ids are not free. I'm sure some have valid reasons to try and pass such Real Voter Identification laws, but the majority are for these type of laws to supress voter turnout in certain neighborhoods. It's easy to tell which neighborhoods those are and what political party they probably belong to.

    Again, lumping everyone into the same box is not right. I don't believe that EVERY German soldier that initially checked people for ids knew that those human beings would later be killed. And it does pertain to this situation based on wanting to check ids. It starts with one law and escalates into many more.

  • Alonso, any kind of ID can be checked for residency. Computers and all that, you know?

    What exactly do you advocate doing about undocumented immigrants? It comes through loud and clear what you DON'T want to do, so do you have anything at all constructive to add to the discussion?

  • Inactive user

    Ed, I too am in favor of immigration, as long as it is LEGAL. Alonso, I am not in favor of giving handouts to lazy people either. Food stamps should require drug tests. All this rhetoric about the rich not paying their FAIR share, they are paying MORE than their fair share by paying MORE in taxes, covering those that cannot pay. What dont you see about that? Tax the rich until they're poor? What happens when the rich have no more money to tax? Whats your solution for that? Will you be the one who decides who has to work to make money? Someone will have to work to make the money for the wanton masses. Also, this is NOT Germany or Poland, and it is also NOT a movie. It is NOT racist to ask for ID, I have no problem carrying one and being asked to show it.
    Veronica, then dont carry ID and get arrested or get in an accident. Good luck with someone trying to ID you in the hospital if you are unconscious. I think its pathetic that people think that carrying an ID is thought to be racist, it is just plain ridiculous! You have to have ID to take out a library book, drive, buy liquor, have a dog, etc. I am perfectly fine with carrying an ID. I have nothing to hide, maybe you do Veronica and wish to belong to the anarchist society that is fearful of government.
    Veronica, I've seen the story about the teen in AZ who was deported. I never saw ANYWHERE where she denied ANYTHING. I think you are making that part up, unless you can show me the news where she denied it. She LIED to the authorities and lived there for TWO YEARS. Not exactly like she was trying to fight the deportation. That is a weak argument.
    Dontchya just hate when people have a different view than yours? And you cant convince them otherwise? (grin)
    Anyway, off track, sorry. This is suppose to be about the day workers.

  • Inactive user

    OMG Alonso, again with the Germany comments? Someone cant afford a $10 state ID? REALLY? The millions that dont have ID are probably mostly illegal. I see no problem AT ALL with showing an ID to vote to prove that one is a citizen. How can one verify that that person has a legal right to vote? If you dont have an ID, you cant vote! Period. Do you want to vote in Italys elections? Go ahead, try and do it without an ID. Betchya you dont get to vote there.
    Is it alright that in Chicago we have a reputation for having dead people vote? What if someone voted using your information and voted against your choice? And then you couldnt change your vote back? Someone just stole your rights!
    We're not lumping everyone into the same box. ID, you can vote, no ID, no vote. Simple.
    It doesnt TARGET anyone. Stop listening to the rhetoric.

  • Where in the constitution does it say you need to get a drivers license? but we do need to have them.

    One of my kids is studying in Italy and he has to have a student visa and register with the local police to receive a paper id that he has to carry with him at all times or face police detention.

    Having to prove your identity is safety for everyone.
    When I grew up in another large city, we were required to carry id at all times.
    Saying that ID laws target the elderly and the poor is a bad excuse. My 92 year old mother has her state ID, she needs it for id for state programs, etc. She hasn't driven in 30 + years, but got her ID.

    And what about Identity theft? I have no problem showing ID to use a credit card and many stores won't give a refund without ID.

  • Driver license and state identification do not prove legal status, they establish identify. US birth certificates, naturalization certificate, US alien residency card and US passport establish legal status. I thought I was clear with my comment asking for identification to prove legal status. Sorry if i wasnt clear. Yes if stopped by authorities I should have a driver's license or ID. But the police should never request to see my birth certificate or U.S passport (after I given my IDs and car insurance, and car registration we can't forget that). Because really how many of us walk around with those important documents (birth certs, passport). 
    I agree we have veered off topic but I have enjoyed this discussion, it's provided me with insight and perspective different than mine. Most of us have been respectful to each other's comment. Not once have I made assumption regardless of comments or false accusations. I expect the same courtesy.

  • I think we can all agree that liberty and freedom are precious. However, anarchy is a bit of a problem, and if nobody has the right to identify anybody else, that is anarchy. In order to survive in social groups, we have to agree to at least SOME rules. An efficient government is a non-zero sum creation.

    I have to go get on a flight to Montreal now, but I have enjoyed the back-and-forth. I am, by the way, taking my passport with me. <g>

  • Inactive user

    Cassie, if I could like your statement more than once, I would! Veronica, you are correct that you neednt show a birth certificate, but a state issued ID is different. Now a passport for entry into another country, yes. Sorry if it appeared that I was accusatory.

  • Inactive user

    On a side note, for those that are worried about our government turning into East Germany...check this out. I am sure that all the naysayers out there will blame FoxNews but I didnt see the story anywhere else. Keep your eyes open people! http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/22/virginia-middle-school-teacher-makes-students-search-for-weaknesses-in-gop/?test=latestnews

  • Jim Bridgeporter

    @Ed Hooks... Genocide was a big machine in a larger picture for the Third Reich: the Germans were nationalistic.

    National-Socialist policy in Germany (aka the politics of the Nazi party) didn't want anyone who wasn't an Aryan residing in their country, and anyone who was German, was subject to control by the state. The Jews, Slavs and Gypsies were only the beginning for Hitler, and whether they were gassed or merely expelled, the politics were the over-arching principle.

    My family tree has several branches that merely stop somewhere in the late 1930s due to the camps, and even I know that ridding the world of Jews wasn't the main goal of the Nazi Party.

    Propaganda, whether peddled by Joseph Goebbels or Rush Limbaugh, is still propaganda. I'll take 10 illegals who are willing to work over 1 native-born American deadbeat who wants to leech the system.

    This is a nation of immigrants, and more importnatly, a world marketplace -- both for production and consumption.

    Just because the majority of the latest wave of immigrants during the past 30 years is more brown doesn't make racism any less palatable than it was 100 years ago when the WASP majority was directing its bile at the Irish, Italians, Eastern Europeans and Jews.

    Recall those 'Irish need not apply' signs in history class? Latinos work just as hard today, and face the same disdain. Yet because they don't speak English, it isn't typically viewed that way.

    And just an FYI to everyone... our Constitution was designed with an eye to posterity (i.e. the framers knew things would change over time, which is why we have a liberal constitution and a Supreme Court to perform the tests).

    Justifying your beliefs by basing them on what other nations do is fine -- but don't commit the hypocrisy of denouncing the other laws and customs in those same countries that you don't agree with. Either go whole-hog with your argument are don't go there at all.

  • Feats I was a Punk before you were a Punk

    @ Jim......sure would be nice if they learned English.....legal or illegal,this is America,Never did understand why my taxes educate them in a foreign language that does not help assimilate them into American culture .

  • Jim Bridgeporter

    You're right, this is America -- and in case you hadn't already checked, we don't have an official language. English is the 'de facto' language, but not officially mandated by law. Some states do have official languages (Illinois actually is one of those states, and here it's English), but there is no federal law.

    Regarding your tax dollars and the public education system in Illinois, check this out:

    http://www.isbe.net/news/pdf/grad_require.pdf

    You'll see that the end result of a public education in Illinois (i.e. a high school degree) requires the student to have 4 years of language arts (that's English) so you're making an erroneous assumption there.

    And BTW, your tax dollars are also being spent on a whole lot BIGGER things that you probably wouldn't approve of -- like giving a whole lot of money to Pakistan, and developing

    I spent 7 years living in the predominantly Mexican neighborhood of Pilsen and I can assure you that the kids of immigrant parents are learning English. Their parents might not all speak it, but the kids they moved here to give a better life (like the millions of Europeans who immigrated here) do. I currently live in a heavily Chinese neighborhood (Bridgeport) and my kid attends public school where kids whose parents don't speak much (if any)English are definitely learning English... and my son gets Mandarin once a week.

    Why are you concerned anyway? Are you afraid that these immigrants parents who don't speak English and pick your produce and grind your hamburger meat will steal that job you're looking for in the slaughterhouse? Or the apple orchard? Or that custodian job at the chemical storage facility?

    Learning English also helps people get better jobs. Assimilation is subjective and irrelevant in this case... the Amish aren't a threat, and they don't assimilate into a modern society. My neighbor is in his 80s and only speaks Italian... although his kids grew up here and speak English. He's assimilated just fine.

  • Guess this question has already been answered exhaustively. Just thought I'd add that some of the fellas who don't find work in the am often proceed to sit on the curb and commiserate over their bad fortune by passing bottles for quite some time, then doing the bump-and-stagger when it's time to go, some not making it all the way home, but snoozing in doorways or on benches along Milwaukee. Not that there's anything wrong with that : )

  • NP Lived in Chicago for 25 years, the hood for 7.

    @Rob W. No, the wealthy generally are not paying their "fair share" of taxes. While it's true that the rich pay a majority of the taxes received by the government, when you look at tax rates as a percentage of income, they are often paying less than the average American. There are certainly exceptions to this rule, but by and large, the wealthy are under-taxed. For a balanced look at this issue, vis-a-vis Warren Buffett's now famous NYT op-ed:

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2011/sep/21/does-secretary-pay-higher-taxes-millionaire/

  • Inactive user

    NP stop reading the rhetoric. You do understand that she gets a salary and he makes his money from investments. BIG difference, apples/oranges. The government taxes you less if you RISK your own money for gain. Its that simple. When the "WEALTHY" pay near 45% in taxes and almost 50% of the population DOESNT PAY ANYTHING, those wealthy ARE paying more than their fair share. Once again, simple. Stop listening to the left, ie NYT, they have the facts wrong. I bet if you worked where you get paid more than $180K/yr, you would think it is unfair. This country was built on people taking risks, risking THEIR OWN money for gain.So if the rich LOST what they risked, they should get penalized as well? Warren Buffet this and that, he agrees that the rich should pay more, but he ALSO believes that EVERYONE should pay SOMETHING. I work at the CBOT, I do a great deal of research on this. Please stop reading the one-sided arguments and read a different view. Balance your decisions.

    If you tax the wealthy until they are poor, where are you going to get the rest of the money when the rich become poor? Someone has to work for it. Are you going to be the one who decides who should work and who shouldnt? I certainly wouldnt want to.

    And besides, the wealthy in this country already voluntarily donate MORE to charitable institutions than the government does. I really dont see what the problem is. If you took money away from the rich who DONATE, charities would fail and they would start asking for government money. That would tax the system even MORE. Life is not fair, there are winners and losers. Once again, simple. I work my tail off, what gives you the right to MY money? What did you do to earn it? Oh, and I dont make anywhere NEAR $180K/yr.

    Anyway, off topic. I will no longer respond to replies such as this, take it elsewhere please.

  • Renee Former Logan'er, current Belmont Gardens homeowner

    Wait, I have to jump back in. Where was anyone talking about taxing the rich til they're poor? Did I miss something somewhere?

  • Inactive user

    Sorry Renee. It did get off track.

  • Renee Former Logan'er, current Belmont Gardens homeowner

    I feel by that logic, if the rich are taxed commensurate to income, they would be no more poor than the middle and lower middle, etc. class who are paying commensurate to their income. The difference lies in income (of which the wealthy have considerably more of.) I quite doubt they would 'become poor.'

  • Yeah Renee, I thought your question was about why a bunch of guys are hanging out in the morning at the intersection where you take the train. Funny how our minds wander, isn't it?

  • Inactive user

    Well, I said I wouldnt comment further, but. Its different because its not necessarily classified as income. They profited because they RISKED. If someone makes money by using their own money, they arent really working per say. They are risking their livelihood for the gain. If they lost it all, they would have to go work for someone who provided their income for them through a salary.
    If you have someone who has a million and they risk (lose) $500K, they dont have a million anymore. If they want to make it back, they have to risk it.
    A great many people do not understand that people who participate in the markets are risking their own money to make that money. I mean, thats why YOU own stocks isnt it? You in effect are taking a risk as well. All those guys with colored jackets on the trade floors (I use to be one) risk their own money to stand there for the opportunity to profit. They do not have a guaranteed paycheck, they dont have health insurance. I know plenty of those who have risked and lost, their cars, their homes, their families. Some have gone to jail or even taken their own lives. A person who trades for a living does not have another day job. They TRADE for profit, using their OWN money. If someone is a carpenter, claims adjuster, salesperson, they do not have the time to sit there and trade all day, they have their job to do.
    If you were able to make enough money by trading, you would also pay a lower rate.
    The difference is profit through work, or profit through RISK.
    People complain about how much Exxon/Mobile makes. Sure its a LOT of money, its also a HUGE company! By percentage, its profits are near 6%. Apple makes double digit profits but we all LOVE our iPods so nobody complains. If you were in business for yourself, would you prefer a 6% profit or double digit profits? We're all out here to make money. Even those guys standing on the corner.

    Okay, NOW I am done. If anyone has any further questions, email me here or check my Facebook page.

  • Carter O'Brien my kingdom to end the Belmont bus bunching

    This is quite the unintentionally hilarious comment:

    "If someone makes money by using their own money, they aren't really working per say."

    Yeah, you're right about that. It's gambling. The money supply isn't increasing. They are taking money away from another gambler, who lost in the bet.

    No, not all of us are just "out to make some money." Making money is a requirement to live in America, but one's salary is often a secondary concern to the ethics and larger societal impact of the company/business involved. Most of us have some minimal stock ownership as corporate America has decimated and eliminated pension plans (as well as outsourced the jobs that provided pensions).

    Everyone who reports to work every day risks being told their work isn't good enough and not to come back the next day. They also risk the company they are working for going under before they can get paid.

    People complain about the oil industry as they've gotten tax incentives for over 50 years, and because they (and many other multinational companies) don't ever have to pay for externalities related to their product.

    Three words for you Rob, credit default swaps. To quote the Dire Straits: that ain't working.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_default_swap

    By the way, how many bankers who hijacked and held our entire economy up at gunpoint went to jail again? Taking your life because you gambled away your assets is one thing. Taking your life because somebody ELSE did so is another. Bigdifference.

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  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    One thing I will say is , Undocumented Immigrant is just Liberal speak for ILLEGAL ALIEN ..If they came here Illegally they are not undocumented . That is sugar coating the fact that they are breaking our laws by being here ..Of course to some it sounds better , Use common sense don't insult your own ethics or integrity by using Liberal speak to sugar coat the term . Most of the Illegal aliens I know are hard workers . I have worked with many . A lot of othes come here because we offer them sanctuary and carte blanche . We give them free stuff Housing Food Education ..Hell we give their kids College Educations that we don't give our own Tax paying citizens chidren ..Sweet deal for them and the Party that backs this behavior for Hispanic support .

  • gerigirl I live and breathe this city!

    I am not for supporting illegal aliens......but that's a whole different thread! I agree with Bike Jedi on his entire post....but as long as their here and contribute, instead of looking for handouts....then so be it....our wonderful Goverment is to blame for allowing this to happen in the first place.....it's always about the money people.......always!

  • Pola NW side since '06

    Wow, what's going on here? Rene's question was answered in the 3rd post...

    I stopped by only to say that the corner has been a labor pick-up spot for years, I remember seeing people there almost 10 years ago when i would drive through this area.

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