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Added Jan 27 2012

Is anyone interested in joining me to urge Alderman Moreno to sign legislation allowing the 13th, 14th, and 19th police districts to issue concealed weapons permits to qualified people in the 1st Ward?

  • As a former federal officer with more training than most of CPD...YES.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    As a former law enforcement ofc I concur . This should be Statewide

  • Kym

    no.

  • majk we mean business

    no I want to conseal and carry we are the only state that doesnt allow it. take back your
    neighborhood and carry with confidence
    I think
    maybe there are two states

  • Agreeing with Kym -- no. There are enough guns on the street already, and I don't want to get caught in the crossfire when someone gets mad on the bus.

  • Kevin kjm

    No way! The streets in all the other states that allow it are constantly covered in blood from all the law abiding citizens that have the CHOICE to conceal carry. Sarcasm.

  • Personally, I wish I'd had a concealed weapon on me when I got mugged near Chicago and Western. Perhaps my skull might still be in one piece, and my left eye would still work properly. I'll bet my friend, who got jumped a few weeks later, also wished he had a weapon on him at the time.

  • No. Guns are part of the problem, not the solution.

  • Inactive user

    With Illinois now the only state in the United States there is a huge push to finally get this state to follow the Second Amendment. A bill was NARROWLY defeated this year, but its coming back up in spring. Call your state representatives and get your voice heard!!

  • thedom Chicagoan

    Only criminals have guns when big gubment bans them and limits usage via concealed carry. I will support any petitions.

    Live free or die.
    Ron Paul 2012

  • Inactive user

    Right to Carry Town Hall Meeting
    Monday, Feb.20, 2012
    7:00-9:00 pm
    Logan Square Auditorium
    2539 North Kedzie Blvd # 15
    Chicago, IL 60647

  • I have friends who are military, former police etc. I do not see any reason why we should not let these trained individuals carry guns. I would actually feel safer knowing there are some good people carrying in the city and I suspect it would make some of the bad guys think twice as well.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    Got to agree with Kevin . Most of the people who are against CCW don't know the facts . Chicago , Detroit , and Washington DC all had GUN bans . They also ENJOYED the highest rates of violent crime associated with hand guns . When you outlaw guns only Outlaws will have guns . You see , by their very definition they operate outside your laws . What that means is they will carry and use , and they will know you are a Sheeple led to the slaughter . Gun bans have never worked except for people like Hitler and Stalin who wanted to control their populace . See a pattern there ? Hell our Constitution is already being wadded up and used for Toilet paper . Thank God the Supreme Court ended the nonsense of Gun Bans. However we have to ask our selves if we can still trust that Court with the increase in Activist Juirist on it . Add the fact that they still have to act on a number of issues pertaining to the Constitution this year . Will they rule appropriately ? Whether you like him or not our leader doesn't seem to have much regard for the document he swore to uphold . Can we still trust that Court ? Time will tell . Whats next ? Wake up people .

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    I will be at the Meeting thanks Greg

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    This topic was extensively covered in a very long previous thread here:
    http://chicago.everyblock.com/news-articles/oct24-4-dead-22-wounded-in-weekend-violence-4369208/

  • Inactive user

    @Bike Jedi you hit it on the head. The facts are clear with 49 other states allowing concealed carry (of course requiring extensive training before a concealed weapon permit is issued) showing crime rates fall in EVERY CASE! It's simple logic that today criminals in Illinois have no fear that their next victim may be armed, and therefore they attack with impunity. Let them know that the next mugging victim may be carrying a gun and most criminals will think twice.

    The bill now in the state legislature is endorsed by most of the state law enforcement agencies which says a lot.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Greg . thinking people who look for facts KNOW THIS . Others will only see what they WANT to see or what their Leaders and Rulers want them to see

  • Paradox Don't loiter or litter.

    Crime is down from 1 year ago, from 5 years ago, from 20 years ago and from 100 years ago. Instead of fear-mongering and perpetuating the culture of fear, you should be celebrating how far humanity has come in the decline of violence.

  • Inactive user

    LOL....Sorry I missed the fear-mongering comments. Could you maybe point them out to me?

  • Inactive user

    Paradox maybe you live in a different part of the city than I do but there was a stabbing just a few days ago less than three blocks from my home. What decline of violence are you talking about?

  • thedom Chicagoan

    I've lived in Chicago most of my life and in Bucktown for about 10 years. I'm tired of criminals confidence knowing they are highly unlikely to be challenged by terminal force.

    I'm all for peaceful resolution of disputes and non-violence. However, the police can't be everywhere to stop crooks and thugs from robbing, harassing and hurting people...but the prospects of getting shot by an angry potential victim might.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/may/19/the-right-to-bear-arms/

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    Yes, this topic has been talked about on another thread, but we must continue to talk about it every chance we get until Illinois follows the constitution like the other 49 states. If our Governor vetos a civil right under the constitution for the citizens of Illinois, he must be voted out of office. I will be at that meeting and talk about being violated by Democrates in this state and city who decide what laws they what to abide by or the laws that do not suit them and they ignore! As for people who think law abiding citizens who waited for the law to change to carry a gun legally will get mad and shoot everyone down in the street because they have the choice to carry one is insane and their minds are closed to all facts from the other 49 states.

  • Inactive user

    Several lawsuits have been filed regarding the prohibition on concealed carry. I hope the state realizes they are fighting a loosing battle before they spend millions fighting a lawsuit they will loose.

  • Inactive user

    Crime in Chicago has not gone done. Everyday someone is getting shot either in their car or walking down the street. And the gun shops don't take investigate the buyer deep enough because all they want is the sale. I lived in the lst Ward several years back, my kids were raised there, Roti was alderman and we didn't have a problem at that time. There are businesses and restaurants there now that wasn't there when I lived there. Why do you need a concealed weapon in that area. Those project buildings on Taylor were knocked down. Was the lst ward remapped?

  • Inactive user

    If you are allowed to carry a concealed weapon in Chicago and someone mugs you trying to take your wallet, you shoot him, you become the victim according to the judge and we have judges on the bench that don't make the right decisions in many cases and also jurors who should not be on the jury. I agree to carrying a concealed weapon in Chicago for safety purposes because there are gang members robbing the bus and "L" including banks and it is happing every day of the week. Is it on the ballot to vote on because I will vote yes.

  • Tw Hermosa is for Lovers.

    No, I'm against.

  • Doug vanderHoof Neighbor in GGNA, video producer

    Neighbors,
    Probably no one in this thread thinks mugging someone for their wallet or even hurting someone's eye is a capital crime, with summary execution being the right response.

    That said, I don't know what's the right thing to do about this.

    I picture a mugging, like Don S describes and I wonder how it would have gone differently. Did the mugger surprise you and hit you before you could defend yourself in any way? If so, the gun wouldn't have saved your eye. No one is that fast on the draw, even people with the gun strapped to their hip. Right?
    Though if you were being threatened and you pulled a gun, it might end the situation. The mugger might run away.
    Or it might escalate.
    With two terrified people, at least one with a deadly weapon, no one is going to do the wise thing, whatever that is. Staying in combat-ready training might let you keep a level head in that situation, but I doubt it.

    Suppose Don got the gun out and shot it. He might hit the mugger and he might not. In any case, there'd now be a bullet flying. Guns these days don't shoot bullets that stop in the body you're shooting at. They're powerful enough to go right through them and do much more damage. That's one good reason not to shoot guns in crowded areas.

    But people deserve to defend themselves. The police aren't set up to prevent any specific occasion of the crime like this.
    So I don't know what to do. I do know that when you're feeling afraid, like when you're being mugged or worrying about being mugged, you're not likely to do the wise thing.
    I hope this conversation we're having is aimed at doing the wise thing.
    So I'm still ambivalent about people carrying guns. This is a tough question.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ RAKARWOWSKI ..couldn't agree more , But you left out one thing . You said Dems in this" City and State" who decide what laws they want to abide by. I think it starts at the top with a " Dear Leader " who has decided the Constitution doesn't apply to him . We need to be at that meeting and all others and we need to Vote these bums who think they know our rights out of offfice . See you at the meeting and in NOV

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Paradox ..glad that you think everything is Rainbows Lollipos and UNICORNS

  • Inactive user

    @doug all fair concerns but I would point out that we have the collective experience of 49 other states who have concealed carry laws on the books. The facts show the fears you have just don't happen. The reality is very few people choose to carry, the training is significant, but when bad guys their next target may be carrying they pause...the deterrent aspect to this law is huge.

    The last thing I would reiterate is this bill is supported by the majority of Illinois law enforcement. They support it because it works.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    @ Greg Eck, All those law suits are paid fpr with our hard earned tax dollars which in Illinois, the government has no problem wasting. This is wrong, they use our tax dollars to abuse our civil rights. We deserve what we voted to get.

  • Tw Hermosa is for Lovers.

    More than muggers, I worry about my neighbors carrying guns around.

    Have none of us ever felt angry at a stranger, or become enraged behind the wheel?
    Ever felt like you wish you could do something about what bothers you?
    Ever felt like the gov't isn't doing enough about a problem?

    Maybe the spot you shoveled was taken by another car, or a home business was operating without license, or a yelping dog was driving you nuts.

    Intentional or accidental, people with guns kill people.

  • Beach and Homan - 30 Years 30 Year resident HP, 60 Year, Lifelong Chicago Res

    Part 1 of 2 parts . . .

    @Mariann Pepitone: Your words about crime not having gone down were never more true. In spite of what Rahm Emmanuel and Police Commander McCarthy state publicly, the incidence of shootings and other crime is actually on the rise. In fact, during the months of November and December 2011, and January 2012, the numbers of shootings has almost doubled in Chicago.

    According to an article in the Chicago SunTimes: "Chicago gangs are still spray-painting their graffiti on alley walls, train cars and viaducts — but they’re also using their smart phones and computers for “cyber-tagging,” according to the Chicago Crime Commission" [See: http://www.suntimes.com/10256178-417/gangs-using-social-media-to-spread-violence.html";]

    The sames types of digital tools we use to discuss the issues in the neighborhoods which are important to us are also being used by the gangs, both in Chicago and elsewhere, to communicate, "e-tag", and spread a new form of hate and crime.

    The Chicago Crime Commission just published a new book which publicly acknowledges that there are more than 68,000 gang members, in 73 street gangs in the Chicago area alone.

    The Sun Times article goes on to say, "The Chicago Crime Commission’s 320-page gang book revealed some gang members’ web conversations about shooting at police officers, mourning slain associates and boasting about drug dealing. One gang member even acknowledged police were watching his social media site"

    According to the Huffington Post, Chicago has the highest number of gang members in the United States. [See: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/27/chicago-has-most-gang-mem_n_1236341.html]

    Continued in part 2 . . .

  • Beach and Homan - 30 Years 30 Year resident HP, 60 Year, Lifelong Chicago Res

    Part 2 of 2 parts . . .

    On top of all of these problems, the Department of Homeland Security is expecting between 50,000 and 100,000 international protesters for the NATO/G8 Summit in May and the FEDS will be in charge of all police activities in Chicago. See: https://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=department+of+homeland+security+to+take+charge+of+NATO+G8+in+Chicago&pbx=1&oq=department+of+homeland+security+to+take+charge+of+NATO+G8+in+Chicago&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2224l14507l1l14792l45l42l1l0l0l0l123l3150l33.9l43l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=550374fd478a51e0&biw=1271&bih=739

    The protesters have myriad websites where they are openly discussing the planned protests, see: https://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=simultaneous+G8+NATO&pbx=1&oq=simultaneous+G8+NATO&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=105l2332l1l3001l7l7l0l0l0l0l91l495l7l7l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=550374fd478a51e0&biw=1271&bih=739

    Chicago has only 12,000 police officers on their payroll. There are approximately 20% of those officers on duty at any given time.

    I am not certain concealed carry is the answer, but arming ourselves with knowledge and staying out of harms way is certainly a respectable attitude.

    This is a good debate for these forums, but concealed carry will not come to Chicago without a court fight. Considering Chicago's shootings are double what they were last year, and also considering that we have NATO/G8 coming in May, and the fact that all available police officers will be assigned to the Downtown and McCormick Place areas, we all need to be aware, take precautions, arrange to stay out of those areas during the NATO/G8 Summit - unless we are actively involved or protesting, and otherwise exercise caution and protect ourselves as we move into warm Spring and Summer weather in Chicago when crime typically rises.

  • NinnyMuggins your neighbor

    As I understand it, there are three requirements to legally transporting weapons down the streets of Chicago. Weapon must be unloaded, enclosed completely within a case, and held by someone with a valid FOID. Nothing is written banning carrying loaded magazines in your pockets or excluding a fanny pack designed to carry a pistol as a 'case'.
    If only they made one of those fanny packs that didn't clash with my UGGS.

  • NinnyMuggins your neighbor

    Tw, you're right. People with guns do accidentally kill. About 1,500 people die per year by accidental gun fire. However, doctors accidentally kill 120,000 people a year (according to the CDC). What's surprising is that there are over 80,000,000 gun owners and only 700,000 doctors in the U.S.
    Almost everyone has a doctor, and that person is 9,000 times more likely to kill you by accident than an accidental shooting.

  • @Doug vanderHoof -- Walking home from a friend's house on a rainy night in March, two youths followed me for two blocks, positioned themselves on either side of me and asked if I had a dollar. I said no, kept walking, and they chased me half a block before jumping me from behind, two blocks from my home. So, yeah, being able to wave a weapon in the air -- or just displaying a holster -- would have prevented the incident.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    The top 10 cities in America with the greatest amount of crime and poverty in America all share one thing in common... DEM control . Can someone explain to me why having the G8 here is a good idea ? Back on point can someone tell me why CCW is bad ? When you examine facts and not just believe there are Unicorns and rainbows everywhere CCW is a working deterent to Crime .Tw may think he has a valid point about guns and road rage but Greg Eck and Ninny Muggins covered the fact that WE have more then ancedotal data to back up CCW .

  • Paradox Don't loiter or litter.

    @NorthCenterNeighbor, you questioned where I live in Chicago, I live in the Austin Neighborhood.

    @Bike Jedi, stating that the 10 top cities in America are under Democrat control, and blaming crime that occurs in those cities on Democratic leaders, is an argument of selective observation, and false. Typically, urban areas elect Democrats, rural areas elect Republicans. I might argue that crime is clustered toward bodies of water like oceans, lakes and rivers. But that argument, like yours, would be false. We all know that human population is denser near bodies of water. Further, it is likely that all of the top 20 cities have Democratic leaders; I'll let you research that.

    I don't think CCW is a bad idea.

    However, I really dislike the perpetuation of falsehoods like 'Crime Is Up'. CRIME IS DOWN. Do yourself a favor and read Steven Pinker's new book "The Better Angels of our Nature: Why Violence has Declined". After you re-educate yourself I would be happy to debate you again.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    B Jedi now you see when I said Democrates in this city and state do not like to follow the law, that is because most of them are criminals. @ Beach/Homan, I checked the numbers of officers on the job at the begining of this year and it was just over 9000, also talked to several officers who stated they will be retiring before the G8/NATO riots. I do not want to scare people but the city will burn because our mayor has no idea what is about to happen and there is not enough police offices in chicago to contol the mob that is on it's way. Those with closed minds to the facts will not listen to reason, I just want my government to obey the laws written in our constitution. Am I asking for to much?

  • Beach and Homan - 30 Years 30 Year resident HP, 60 Year, Lifelong Chicago Res

    @RAKARWOWSKI: The official payroll records show approximately 12,000 receiving paychecks and benefits. This includes those on disability, sick leave, at HQ, and in other administrative positions. There are fewer than 9,000 who are available for the districts at any given time. This includes administrative within the districts and does not include those who are out sick during any given shift

  • Beach and Homan - 30 Years 30 Year resident HP, 60 Year, Lifelong Chicago Res

    PS: The officer shortage is so bad that when coupled with the fact that the suburbs will not be sending any officers into Chicago to assist during NATO/G8 - because so many of the suburban police departments have not been paid for prior assists, that the Illinois State Crime Commission is looking for Iraq / Afganistan vets to fill in.

    "Member companies of the Illinois State Crime Commission/Police Athletic League of Illinois have an urgent need to employ Iraq Afghanistan Veterans for security positions during the G-8 conference. These jobs will pay $20-$30 per hour and may lead to permanent full benefit employment. All must be prepared for security clearances including background check and drug testing.

    To apply contact ISCC's Dan Elsner (Iraq Veteran/USMC) at 630-802-3591." See: http://illinoiscrimecommission.com/news/contentview.asp?c=53586

  • Paradox Don't loiter or litter.

    @Rakawowski, good job on the fear-mongering: "I don't want to scare people but the city will burn..."; police retirements and riots. If your CPD buddies were smart, they'd stay employed for a month after the conferences to collect 6 months more credit toward their lifetime pension.

    Go figure, the number of CPD active officers has been steadily declining for a few years now, and crime has also gone down during each of those years. Can we make a correlation here? Fewer CPD = fewer crimes? Alas I cannot, that would be a False Cause argument.

    I think the G8 Summit is 2-days in length and NATO is occurring concurrently the same week.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Paradox , I deal in fact . While there are many urban areas under Dem control there are many more in the West and South under Republican control . The fact remains that the 10 most Poverty Stricken Cities and the 10 most Dangerous Cities in America are ALL under DEM control . My argument is not false it is based in FACT . To equate it to an argument on bodies of water is childish . Then to state you'll let me do my own research on that is absurd . I hope you don't debate people like that in public because they probably laugh at you if you do . It should be rather apparent that I dont have to do my research as I already have . You sir , on the other hand should take your own advice and look into it yourself . I know what you find , you won't like , because it obviously won't fit your Ideology . So you have to ask youself... Do you want to keep believing that Unicorn nonsense or do you want the truth ? I also certainly don't need to "re educate" myself especially for the pleasure of debating you . It's hard to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person ( double entendre intended)You obviosly don't do YOUR own research so don't bother . You make yourself look small. Also if you want to believe Violence has declined because some Author has written a new age book not based in crime statistcs but feel good psycho babble have at it . It might give you a feel good moment but it is not based in fact . Not in this Country anyway .

  • Paradox Don't loiter or litter.

    @Bike Jedi: Your argument is FALSE since crime in Chicago is down; crime in America is down. Chicago is not the most dangerous city in America because of its lack of CCW. That said, you just got off topic, the topic is CCW, I am alright with CCW.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @RAKARWOWSKI ..The Police Dept is totally undermanned and I have also heard a number of Ofc are planning on leaving before the mess of the G8 . I hate to be Pessimistic but I can see no good reason why Rahm would want this here . There could be billions in Property damage and certainly in Security costs . Couple that with the fact that it will make us a prime terrorist target and OWS protest target . The costs are going to be enormous and the only way it is going to showcase our City on the world stage should be negative . Every other city that has hosted this has had Riots and Protests . Everyday citizens have booked vactation time during these events and businesses in and around these sites have suffered .I really hope I'm wrong but when you factor in a perfect setting for the international/OWS protesters to get worldwide attention .. then you factor in an election year where certain people would rather have the attention on that then their own records . I would venture an educated guess that most of the media will delight in covering and diverting the country 's attention on this rather then those peoples records. . so you can see why I'm not optimistic of a good Outcome ... I know Paradox will probably say we should stop fearmongering and he'll probably say something about how crime is going down , and some stats are . He also won't mention how low they could be if the city got it's fiscal house in order and properly manned the Police Dept . Meanwhile the rest of us who don't live in Unicorn land will try to remain optimistic while being practical and pragmatic . . Anyway we should probably get back on topic ..my bad CCW good thing G8 probably not so much ..time will tell

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ PARADOX . Stop it you are making me laugh . No my argument is based in fact . YOU are right that crime has gone down in Chicago . That said we are still one of the most dangerous city's and the other fact is also correct the top ten ( and probably more )are all under Dem control . I'm glad you say you don't have a problem with CCW . Somehow I'm having a hard time beieving that but I will take you at your word . Notice I said YOU are right about Crime going down OK

  • olga City Girl

    Well as a single mother who is 9 times out of 10 doing what I have to do on public trans or walking to get to my destination in the daytime or at night. I want to have the opportunity to defend myself and my family if some sicko or drunk (grabbed my butt while I was waiting for the bus with my baby last summer) or pervert or mugger tries to attack us. Or home invasion a lot of that going on too! Its bad out here! And I grew up here when the gangs were at war in the 80's, 90's but believe it or not I felt safer back than I do now with what's going on. Its a different type of war in these Streets now.

  • I don't think the supporters of CCW here are doing themselves many favors. Between the conspiracy theories, personal attacks and generally angry tone, I would trust few of them with firearms, concealed or otherwise.

  • Tw Hermosa is for Lovers.

    Cheers, Michael V.
    It's horrible to experience crime firsthand, but more frightening to me are weapons in the hands of our well-meaning neighbors, who may also be prone to vengeance, anger, and personal attack.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    @ PARADOX, Knew you would say that, again, do not be scared, (fear-mongering), be prepared. I was at all six bulls riots, looting, buildings burning and the Mayor said there was no rioting or burning. Did you believe that to? Police reports change and crime goes down and as for crime going down across the country, it did just after CCW was allowed again by the Supreme Court. I do not want to scare anyone, I just state the fact that at every G8/NATO meeting it has happened and it will happen here. Maybe it would not be so bad if the rioters knew CCW was allowed here to.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    No one should be scared and demand CCW. Everyone should be mad that the law is not being followed even after being ordered to do so by the highest court in the USA. I would love to live in a world without gun violence but I can not go back in time and fix it. I am happy to hear everyone point of view with a open mind but until something better comes along, let's obey the laws we have.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    @ Beach/Homan, to check the number of street officers you must get the number of checks cut for duty availabilty that is were I found my numbers. Let me also point out, it is not smart to go to a riot no matter how much anyone will pay you! I have only heard of one officer say he will stay for the pay. That shows to me he has never had to handle a riot. People do need to know what they are talking about before they open their mouths. Smart to go handle a riot, insane more like it.

  • Beach and Homan - 30 Years 30 Year resident HP, 60 Year, Lifelong Chicago Res

    Neighborhood Scout is an independent tracking system which tracks crime right down to the block.

    According to Neighborhood Scout: "With a crime rate of 57 per one thousand residents, Chicago has one of the highest crime rates in America compared to all communities of all sizes - from the smallest towns to the very largest cities. One's chance of becoming a victim of either violent or property crime here is one in 18. Within Illinois, more than 96% of the communities have a lower crime rate than Chicago.In fact, after researching dangerous places to live, NeighborhoodScout found Chicago to be one of the top 100 most dangerous cities in the U.S.A."

    You can run your own data searches on Neighborhood Scout by going to: http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/il/chicago/crime?gclid=CJPw5MKe960CFULrKgodqjdysA#description

    As I previously stated, the number of shootings did decline in Chicago last year, until October. November, December, and January are way up over last year.

    After you run your own set of crime statistics for Chicago, be certain to check out the YouTube videos of past G8 summits, and, as you do, remember that these were G8 ONLY events.

    The May fiasco in Chicago, which will be a combination of G8 AND NATO, is expected to draw between 50,000 and 100,000 international protesters. The YouTube link to past videos is here: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=g8+protests&oq=g8+protests&aq=f&aqi=g1g-m1&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2841l5203l0l5610l11l9l0l0l0l0l286l1799l0.3.6l9l0

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    What scares me are people who are more frighten by law abiding citizens who CCW because they believe they will start shooting everyone at a drop of a hat but do nothing about the criminals that are shooting up the streets where I live. Something like 12 people shot this weekend and not one by a law abiding citizen.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    I say no. Why? There is a huge range of variables involved in crime, and John Lott's (the author whose argument is driving the NRA push to make concealed weapons legal) statistical analysis has been questioned by credible sources. By the way, the consumption of hot chocolate can also be correlated with reduction in crime. We can argue this point 'til the cows come home, so this really depends on your viewpoint. Almost every major law enforcement organization — including the International Brotherhood of Police Officers and the International Association of Chiefs of Police — thinks law enforcement should have discretion over the carrying of concealed handguns in public. Let's look at some common sense logic about what might happened if we have an armed citizenry. Ever see a heated argument on the street or in a bar that turns into a fight? What if the hotheads were carrying guns? Police have a depth of experience and training to know when to draw and shoot and when to not. Can you expect a short training course to provide the same grounding? Finally, what never gets measured is the psychic cost of living in a society with an armed citizenry. More and more people will carry guns, because they know many others are carrying them. Would you like to live in a society like this? I've lived all my life in the city and never needed a gun. Since my wife moved here she was robbed once and gunpoint and shot at through a car window. She doesn't want to carry a gun either. My sympathy goes out to everyone who's been vicitimized and thinks that having a gun would have saved them. But that's not an argument for an armed populace. There are other ways to prevent violence. Project CeaseFire, for example, has reduced violent crimes in Chicago neighborhoods through identifying and talking with people about to commit violence.

  • olga City Girl

    I don't know what the right answer is I do know I'm fed up of all the crime going on. I fear for those close to me and those whom I don't know who are good ppl I say good ppl because I don't have any sympathy for sex offenders like one I just found out lives two houses down from me. The city needs to get it together. I mean who's in charge here? Anyone with half a brain and heart to go through with real issues?

  • I usually don't comment, just read and "thank" because I never have felt very strong on any issue posted. But this one, I do. I see both sides of the story - On the one hand, everyone has a gun, you find yourself shopping in Jewel, a fight breaks out and now everyone's a target and a shooter. I get it.
    On the other hand, I see tons of gang members and (for lack of better words) thugs pointing guns at people who have done nothing but work and work to get where they are today only to be robbed of everything they have - Pride, material objects, feeling of safety.
    I think it's ridiculous the only people who actually have guns are people that are NOT supposed to have guns. I have my FOID card. So does my husband. I'm sick and tired of hearing about these thugs being able to point a gun at some citizen who's done everything right and have their lives stolen. Why can't we, the law abiding citizens who try to do right everyday, have the same freedom and feeling of safety like these good for nothing jerks do???
    I think it's ridiculous that everyone who isn't registered with the state of IL can go and get a gun and wave it around like they're Jesse James. It isn't fair, just, or right.
    Have everyone that wants to carry a weapon, pay a fee (there's money to go towards are heavily looming debt), take a safety class, and a gun class (more money towards our debt).
    Having an armed citizenry might make people think twice about pulling a gun on someone. Right now, when I walk down the street and see someone "shady" coming my way, I walk to the other side and mind my own business because I know any wrong thing I do, there's the possibility that I might get shot. For those people that got robbed at gunpoint - I have a feeling if the person had a slight inclination that you possibly could have a gun, you would not have been robbed.
    I'm all for it. It's our constitutional right, as a country, as citizens,to defend ourselves and have a RIGHT to carry arms.

  • Mark Rector Logan Square and loving it!

    Absolutely not. More guns on the street and in public places are not the answer - I don't care how "qualified" you are.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    julie b: I try to see your side of the story, but you seem to take the risk of an armed populace lightly, compared to the speculation about how many crimes this will deter. (I don't think the statistics are definitive, because there are too many variables.) By the way, the intent of the Constitution had to do with the fear of being taken over by an armed power, not the prevention of crime. It may be a right, but I wouldn't capitalize it. Things have changed since the Constitution was written. In any case, this is an issue that will be decided by strong opinions and emotions and not in any context where costs and benefits will be weighed against objective research. If escalating the firepower of the average citizen and carrying a gun will make you feel safer, that's your call. As for me, it will make me feel less safe. I don't like the idea of a wary citizenry looking askance at every stranger walking down the street, wondering if that aggressive person picking an argument also is armed, and always considering that drawing a weapon is a viable option. This is one more step towards an atomized individualistic society that already has reduced us to consumer units with no sense of community. Now we will be armed consumer units.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    Removing guns does not work and allowing CCW does work, all the facts show this. If you think groups like cease fire lowered crime, you never saw them in action. I have and government paid gang bangers is not the solution. I am all for trying something else but I think there is nothing left. Now let us try following the law on this issue and if does not work, change the law. Using the other 49 states as an example, thinking an armed population will just shoot each other when they get mad does not hold water. I have read several others stating this as their reason against CCW and it is false so move on and find another reason against CCW.

  • I don't take it lightly. What I don't understand is people fighting the issue and trying to take a stance AGAINST guns when all it does is further ADD more guns to the people who do not need them. I've lived in Chicago for 15 years. I've lived in the South Loop, to Rogers park, to Humboldt Park, and now to West Town. I lived in Wicker Park where bars were on the windows of my first apartment.
    I just tend to be on the side of the fence where people may think twice about the consequences of their actions if everyone has the means to arm themselves. Right now, there are no consequences for people who rob at gunpoint and shoot at the innocent. Why? Because it takes FOREVER for justice to be found. And, these people who have the guns KNOW that the people they're doing this to do not have weapons. Why? Because they are LAW ABIDING and do not want to break the law. That's my point.
    If everyone ASSUMES that everyone has a gun, maybe, the crime with guns will stop.
    Let me finish by saying - Guns aren't the problem. People are. But unfortunately, there's too many stupid, pathetic people out there who make guns the problem. And the ones that do are the ones that are harming our entire communities of people who do not make guns a problem.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Rakarwowski: Your "all the facts" are only some of the facts. The Springfield Register said last year on March 11 that there is plenty evidence on both sides of this issue. "John Donohue III, a Yale University law professor and economist ...has countered [John] Lott’s findings with research of his own. Donohue says his data shows that laws allowing concealed weapons have, at best, no influence on the crime rate and may lead to increases in aggravated assaults. 'My general sense is, the best we can say today with the most recent data is that the impact of these right-to-carry laws is not great. But what effect there is seems to be harmful. … I probably published two or three articles in the last year that showed the reduction of 3 or 4 percent is completely wrong.”

    Alaska, "...doesn’t require permits for concealed guns. With 652 violent crimes per 100,000 residents, Alaska’s violent-crime rate in 2008 was also considerably higher than in Illinois, where the FBI reported 525 cases of violent crime for every 100,000 residents.Then there’s the District of Columbia, which doesn’t allow concealed firearms. The district had the nation’s highest rate of violent crime, 1,438 cases per 100,000 residents, in 2008, the same year the Supreme Court struck down Washington’s ban on handgun ownership."

    Also, your characterization of CeaseFire staff as "government paid gang bangers" is wrong. These are former gang bangers who served time and are repaying their dues. Illinois dropped its funding of CeaseFire depends heavily on charitable funds. I know CeaseFire, too.

    Nothing happens without both benefits and costs. Arriving at conclusions based on partial and anecdotal data only means you have an opinion. So do I: I am against the wholesale arming of our citizens because it proposes to take on the problem of handgun violence by increasing the proliferation of handguns.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    julie b: You said, "What I don't understand is people fighting the issue and trying to take a stance AGAINST guns when all it does is further ADD more guns to the people who do not need them." How does taking a stand against guns [meaning, in my case, the proliferation of hand guns] add more guns?

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    @Tom G, I respect your point of view, you make statements (seems to be harmful,may lead to increases in aggravated assaults) I will stick to facts. Has crime gone down in Washington DC as time has passed with CCW? Also we will have to agree to disagree with your point of view about CeaseFire those former gang bangers here in Humboldt Park did more gang banging and law breaking than good and if you attended any of our neighborhood meetings you would hear from most how they wanted no part of CeaseFire in our area after witnessing what they were doing.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    I find it amusing that all the people arguing against CCW are calling the pragmatic and proactive group who support it fear mongerers etc . I also know Sheila Regan from Cease Fire , they try to do good work but really what they are is a group centered at UIC that does good statistical work and Social Outreach to Gang Bangers . They rely mostly on Gov't grants to do this and are one of the favored Crony Charities of our Dems here . By the way when and why is it in our elected officials prevue to dole out our tax dollars as they see fit to Charities based on their standing with said Party . That is an argument for another thread me thinks . I'll take hard Facts and Data gleaned from years of Police reports and other reliable sources over what some Yale professor put together . I believe the evidence is OVERWHELMING in favor of CCW being a deterent to crime and also , that evidence shows that responsible citizens don't get reckless with their Guns . When you look at Police cuts in Major cities one should realize we are going to be left more and more to our own devices to defend ourselves . Look at Detroit where they are Considering no longer Investigating Car theft and Closing Police Stations after 4 pm . This is being done because that City is as broke as we are .When this becomes accepted practice whats next ..Arson wont be investigated because it's a property crime ? What's next muggings rapes ? When you don't have a properly manned Police Dept thats a Problem . The lesson you should take from this is that Crime is not a big priority to your Elected Officials most of them are like Rosie O'ddonnell who decries guns for the masses while she has armed Body Guards . Look at how many of our Public Servants have Chicago Police Body Guards/ Errand boys ? Chauffers .CCW has worked in 49 States already

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Bike Jedi: If you read my comment above you'll see I cited law enforcement agencies as well as the Yale professor about CCW. (Does the Chicago Police Department want this?) And it was another academic whose research is being widely used to say CCW works. His conclusion has been questioned based on his research methods--the variables he used and how he measured them. CCW is controversial and open to debate. I have bias against guns, but when I hear someone state an opinion as proven fact, I do research to see if there is common agreement among people who study the issue and work with it. And this cheap shot about CeaseFire being a crony charity is flat out wrong. If it had been a crony charity the State would not have dropped funding a few years ago. And it isn't a pet program of City Hall either, so I don't know what cronies you're referring to. I do know for a fact that Cease Fire has been scrambling for private funds and is supported by Chicago Community Trust, the MacArthur Foundation, Robert Wood Johnson and others. That said, I appreciate your first-hand comment about CeaseFire in your community. If your characterization is true, I'd like to get some details from you offline. Really.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Rakarwowski: I think I mixed up some Bike Jedi comments with yours. I'd like to hear offline your community's experience with CeaseFire. This concerns me alot.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Tom G I thought I read recently in one of our papers that they just got a grant from either the State or City ..I may be wrong but that's what I remember . As I said Sheila Regan who works for Ceasefire is an acquintance if I can contact her I will but she isn't good at getting back to me . I have attended Ceasefire meetings and such and was impressed with their dedication . It may have been a cheap shot at them for the Crony Charity thing . So until I have the facts I will stand down on that . I guess I was just railing against our elected officials having the power to dole out our Tax dollars to favored charities which I think is totally inscestous . I also have worked with many in Academia and have a cuurent Co worker who is a PHD ex U of C prof . Long story short ..I dont trust Academics on this sort of thing . When they do studies there is usually an agenda and that comes from whichever party is their sponsor and the desired results they would like to see . This usually goes a long way in deciding funding for said study and that can make that Academic compromised . I'm not saying His study is valid or not , just that I personally have trouble with that

  • Beach and Homan - 30 Years 30 Year resident HP, 60 Year, Lifelong Chicago Res

    B latent vehicle theft in West Humboldt Park - at 9:50 PM on a major street - as pedestrians and traffic go by!

    http://youtu.be/Ehex58Maww4

    Second such incident, by the same group, on the same corner, in as many months. Both caught on video.

  • Inactive user

    @Tom G you ask why? Why is because its a right provided by the 2nd amendment. 49 states already have acknowledged this and passed CCW laws accordingly.

  • Irving Dave Kimball & Irving Park

    I am not for CCW, but, I do not think there would be a sudden influx of guns that would make a drastic reduction in crime. People who want to own a gun and are comfortable doing so will go through the legal requirements to do as such. Those who don't will not suddenly want to with CCW. Hence why there is still crime in states where it is legal.

    CCW doesn't reduce causes and drivers of criminal behavior.

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    Criminals do not announce their presence from a safe distance, in an area empty of children and bystanders.
    Muggers will mug you whether you have a gun or not. They'll just be more likely to approach you from behind and smash your skull in first.
    As I've said on here before, I was held up at gunpoint once by three guys - one in front, two behind me. If I had tried to pull a gun I would be dead now. If I had shot at them as they ran away I could have hit anyone or anything nearby.
    As it was, I called the cops, we went looking for the guys and found them nearby. A few months later, the verdict: guilty, go directly to jail. Handguns being illegal in the city just meant there was one more crime to charge.
    So please: stay calm, hand over the money, and don't try to be a cowboy. It'll be better for everyone.

  • Joe

    Prior to the 1930's there was no gun regulation after gun regulation violence increased and since concealed became legal by states in the late 80's violence has decreased. We do not have to imagine what would happen with cc here because we have 49 other states to study and the facts show cc lowers violent crime. Read the University of Chicago study by I believe Lott.
    Peoples feelings are valid but it does mean you are right.

    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-03-31/news/ct-oped-0331-chapman-20110331_1_concealed-carry-permit-holders-brady-campaign

  • Irving Dave Kimball & Irving Park

    Joe- there are many other economic factors and a certain Supreme Court case (that I won't name, let you do the research) in the early 70's which accounted for the huge drop in crime. To say the states allowing CCW is the reason for the drop in crime in the late 80's/early 90's is very bold.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Joe, what I've been saying ad nauseum that one oft-cited study by John Lott does not tell the whole story. There is not one definitive piece of research, as usual. There are other studies and other factors to consider. Follow these links for some mainstream (not pro- or anti-) reporting: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/WhosCounting/story?id=98678&page=1 and
    and http://www.sj-r.com/top-stories/x1526463189/Concealed-carry-laws-Experts-debate-impact
    Peoples feelings are not only valid, but they must be considered seriously because CCW depends on popular support.

  • Cyn Chi since 1991, East Humboldt since 2010

    I don't understand why all the people on EveryBlock who want to carry guns don't get off the internet and go organize in real life for the law they want. No point trying to convince folks from your armchair. Organize and get it done. Who cares about those of us who don't want it? The NRA is a powerful lobby with tons of money. Join them, and get it done. Chances are good you will succeed. Either way, I, knowing my temper, will never carry a gun whether it's legal or not. :)

  • NinnyMuggins your neighbor

    Jason Walker: you might tolerate being victimized, but don't tell us we have to. Or perhaps you're the one who steals and this is what you tell your victims, "Don't resist. Hand over the money. Trust the police to arrest me. Its better for everyone."
    Maybe those guys who robbed you would have thought twice if there was a chance you could kill one of them. But there was no chance; we're unarmed targets.

  • Cyn Chi since 1991, East Humboldt since 2010

    Uh, Jason is not a criminal...he used existing laws to exact justice on his attacker...

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    @ Cyndi, I think it is fantastic you know your limitations and will not carry even if the law allows you to. But I think you missed the point most here are trying to make. 1 The supreme court has already ruled that CCW is legal but in Illinois the politicians are breaking that law by not allowing CCW in this state (I say vote the bums out). 2 The truth about what happens to crime when CCW is allowed (example the other 49 states). I am sorry to hear what has happened to my neighbors in this thread (glad that they are ok)and do not want to be victimized hoping that the criminal will only take my money and not my life. I wonder if the two ladies raped at knief point in Humboldt Park in the last few days think just give it up and hope the police will arrest him, It'll be better for everyone.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Rakarwowski: If you're open minded, look at my last post and I have links to a few mainstream articles that say there is an informed debate over whether CCW works at reducing crime. Unlike global warming, there is not strong consensus among people who research this issue or people who work in the field that CCW works.

  • VictorPaul Logan Square Resident

    Yes!

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    Tom G, I try, most studies are not worth the paper they are written on when you check to see how the study was done. A great Republican President allowed all retired police officers to CCW (most democrates did not like this) and then the highest court ruled CCW to be legal and crime has beem falling ever after. I do not need a study to figure out why this is happening. I have read papers where police chiefs who did not want CCW in their towns and did everything to stop it changed their minds and had to agree that after CCW was allowed in their area, crime went down and they did not need to hire more police to fight crime. How many times do poeple need to be shown that 2+2=4, what do you do when they will not listen to reason and fact.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    Tom G, talk to police officers in chicago and ask them what they think and if they will give up their CCW. I did. I will take their decades of first hand knowledge before any study anyone did in a few months or years. Let me also point out that crime did not go down because of CCW alone but hand in hand with harder gun laws charged to criminals in the courts.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    As Paul Simon said, "A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. (li la li, la la la la li di li)."

  • Cyn Chi since 1991, East Humboldt since 2010

    to that end, EB has a mute button...

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Actually, it's too much fun to mute. I comment with people on the MSNBC website and they're nasty! People here disagree, but there's a level of civility you don't find too often on the net. Chalk up another one for Chicago!

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    I agree, I am having a great time and enjoy everyones input.

  • I wonder if NinnyMuggins up there had any inclination what they started when asking this one "simple" question :)

  • NinnyMuggins your neighbor

    This issue is just like abortion and gay marriage. We all deserve to make these choices for ourselves. Don't want gay marriage/abortion/to defend yourself with a gun? Don't get one. I'll leave it to you.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Ninny: My wife has never been hit by a flying fetus or jumped by a gay couple, but she was shot with a hand gun. And no, it would have made no difference if she was armed.

  • Joe

    Bottom line is that 49 states allow ccw beginning with Florida in the late 80's and none if the concerns for allowing it in illinois occurred in other states, this is a fact. If people with ccw in other states shot people everytime they were mad at someone show me 1 example. In one year police shoot 330 innocent people should we ban police?

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    Wow Tom, your wife OK? I am shocked to hear from so many who have been victims of gun crimes. Dose anyone think that what we have been doing so far is not working? Maybe it is time to try something new like term limits!

  • Joe

    Tom,
    Sorry your wife was shot.
    And whether she was armed or not does not matter, If she were armed she may have decided not to draw the weapon.
    What I learned is that despite the law the person who shot her ignored the law and shot her anyway, i would prefer that the government allows me the choice to be legally armed or not. The government failed to protect your wife combined with the wisdom of the founders to create a constitution that limits government tells me citizens should be prochoice and pro individual in this matter.

  • Beach and Homan - 30 Years 30 Year resident HP, 60 Year, Lifelong Chicago Res

    or maybe it's time to get rid of everyone in office and replace them with people who know what common sense is, abolish the lobbyists, listen the the voters when laws are up for a vote, and get a BALANCED BUDGET for a change.

    Every municipality in Colorado, at every level, city, county, and state, must have their budget BALANCED and ONLINE, down to the line item by February, so that anyone can see what is spent in every area: rent, office supplies, telephone expense, salaries, every department is public information for every aspect of government, at every level. Contracts are part of the budget, too.

    The State of Colorado has a balanced budget, and they balanced it with $12 million in revenue from the taxes generated by medical marijuana.

    Elected officials who are not tied to campaign contributors, beholden to lobbyists because of those campaign contributions, who listen to the electorate, and know how to use common sense. Might be a good place to start.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Beach and Homan ...I love that Colorado approach but it would never fly here for it makes too much Damn sense . Quinn, Rahm , Prekwinckle , and most importantly Madigan would never let that fly here . It would end the Money Laundering scheme where they shuffle OUR tax dollars between the Public Unions and Dem campaign chests . All their Shennanigans would be exposed and they probably wouldn't be able to get reelected . Great for us bad for them . ACORN and their ILK wouold really have to step up their game .

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Joe, thanks for the sympathetic note. Actually, what happened is someone randomly shot her through the windshield of a parked car. Fortunately it just grazed her skill and missed her eye, but it was frightening. I honestly don't know whether CCW would reduce crime. It's a social experiment and I haven't seen anything definitive about costs and benefits. I really don't think the drafters of the Constitution envisioned our society with guns today. The separate states were just learning to work under one federal government, we had just thrown off a foreign power, and it was thought that the right to bear arms would prevent a takeover. It was never about crime. Now we have a bunch of idiots running around with high powered weapons in densely populated cities. If I could, I'd choke off the gun supply so they weren't so easy to buy and otherwise let the hunters shoot their ducks. But we have a gun culture now and into the foreseeable future. Mix that with poverty, drug traffic, and machismo and watch little kids get shot by wayward bullets. I understand there's a legion of responsible gun owners out there. But last time I was up in Wisconsin I saw all the billboards advertising handguns that meet concealable weapons permit regulations. It's an industry and marketing will drive consumer demand. If some social cohorts think it's cool to pack a weapon, the demand will only grow. And what percentage of those guns will actually stop a crime? Because the deterrent argument is shaky, at best.

  • Cyn Chi since 1991, East Humboldt since 2010

    Anyone else here think a discussion of gun laws has turned into a bizarre forum for partisan rhetoric which is pretty far removed from the initial post?! Sheesh.

    P.S. ACORN no longer exists.

    P.P.S. Again why did the person who started this thread even bother? Go start a group, join the NRA, lobby lawmakers and get ready for gun fun time! Get to work and get your holsters ready!

  • Joe

    Idiots already have guns despite it being illegal, I believe about 2/3 of FOID applicants are denied so of that pool that get a FOID card and based on the 49 states stats regarding CCW, I fail to see it making anything worse. To quote mayor Daly "if it saves one life its worth it"

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Jason Walker . give up and don't be a cowboy ???would you say that also if they were raping your wife ? Just do what they say Honey ..when they are done I'll call the Police ? It's your poragative if you want to hand them YOUR wallet . I work too hard for that nonsense .If they try that on me I'm not going down without a fight . If everyone just handed over their stuff the Criminalas would love that as much as they already love knowing we are unarmed . I understand that not everyone in this world may be brave and some may see discretion as the better part of value and thats Ok for you and them ..Your decision . Me , if I have any chance to stop a piece of garbage I'm going for it ..Yes I know it may cost me . That's just me . It's not about being a Cowboy more about stopping these scum bags on the spot if I can . If I can't then I would try to evade them . That isn't always an option sometimes they get you from behind , but if I have any chance I'm fighting . As ex law enfc myself I can tell you catching someone after the fact does not happen often . Every situation is different and I don't want to make it sound like I'm as brave or as bad ad Rambo because I certainly am not . I'm just saying if I have a chance to stop a scum bag I'm going to try . I think NinnyMuggins said it better then I . If you want to just give them your stuff that is your decision and I will respect that , but a lot of us are tired of having to do that .

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Cyndi: You think this is bad? Go to some of the chats on the MSNBC site. It's armageddon. Actually, most people on this thread have been relatively civil. Athough they have strong opinions, I get the sense that some people are listening to each other across the sides of this issue. That's a start.

  • Cyn Chi since 1991, East Humboldt since 2010

    I envy your optimism and your perception that there is listening going on. I need to unsubscribe to avoid losing my mind.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Joe: Hmmm, interesting about FOID applicants and the refusal rate. I wonder how many crimes are committed with registered guns. In any case, the secondary illegal market must depend on a supply of legally purchased weapons. If so, capping the number of weapons available in the legal market would drive up the price for guns on the illegal market. Higher prices would translate into fewer purchases.

  • Inactive user

    @Cyndi The person probably started the thread for exactly what his post stated. Looking for people to help him push for adoption of CCW in his listed police districts. I know you want to limit his Second Amendment rights but are you looking to limit his First Amendment as well?

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Tom G you referenced Global Warming and said" Unlike global warming, there is not strong consensus among people who research this issue or people who work in the field " I don't know what side you support on that issue , but I have seen enough back and forth on that to know there is no consensus on that at all Unless you want to ignore hacked emails the Russians uncovered the NOAA's own data from a few years ago and the leading Scientist who resigned from the APS over their "INCONTREVERTABLE" evidence statement ..which he didn't agree with ( and the 16 others who signed his letter who also have a problem with that term) .(WSJ This week ) I guess if you want to look past all that ..then your right . Don't know what that has to do with CCW but I like the way you tried to put out there that there is no debate on that , when there are Mountains of evidence on BOTH sides of that . The evidence on CCW is a hell of a lot more one sided as we have not only statistical evidence but also the experience of 49 other States .

  • Beach and Homan - 30 Years 30 Year resident HP, 60 Year, Lifelong Chicago Res

    Everything stated in this thread is directly related to CCW. It is not just about the "right to carry" but the problems and solutions surround the issue.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Cyndi do you really believe ACORN no longer exists ?? Really ?? back to CCW

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Hey Jedi--I just uncovered this article about a recent global warming study and you should find it interesting, given who backed it:
    April 04, 2011|By Margot Roosevelt, Los Angeles Times

    A team of UC Berkeley physicists and statisticians that set out to challenge the scientific consensus on global warming is finding that its data-crunching effort is producing results nearly identical to those underlying the prevailing view.

    The Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature project was launched by physics professor Richard Muller, a longtime critic of government-led climate studies, to address what he called "the legitimate concerns" of skeptics who believe that global warming is exaggerated.

    But Muller unexpectedly told a congressional hearing last week that the work of the three principal groups that have analyzed the temperature trends underlying climate science is "excellent.... We see a global warming trend that is very similar to that previously reported by the other groups."

    The hearing was called by GOP leaders of the House Science & Technology committee, who have expressed doubts about the integrity of climate science. It was one of several inquiries in recent weeks as the Environmental Protection Agency's efforts to curb planet-heating emissions from industrial plants and motor vehicles have come under strenuous attack in Congress.

    Muller said his group was surprised by its findings, but he cautioned that the initial assessment is based on only 2% of the 1.6 billion measurements that will eventually be examined.

    The Berkeley project's biggest private backer, at $150,000, is the Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation. Oil billionaires Charles and David Koch are the nation's most prominent funders of efforts to prevent curbs on the burning of fossil fuels, the largest contributor to planet-warming greenhouse gases.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Tom G... holy crap...those evil capitalists ...I'll look into that ..interesting ...as I said I believe there is evidence on both sides of that issue which does make it debatable . One thing I will take issue with in that thingy is the EPA ...I don't trust them farther then I can throw them.. On the other hand however I think most of the evidence on CCW supports it . I guess my point is that it is debatable and some think that CCW is as well . I think we are having a good debate and exchange of ideas . I agree with RAKARWOWSKI on the Supreme court stuff and I support CCW . We probably should stay on that or Cyndi or Becca may admonish us to stay on topic . I agree with you Tom that even when people disagree on this site it typically stays civil I think Rak feels the same way . Maybe that's because if you think about it we are all neighbors on this site , so even if we disagree I think we stay Chicago on this site . Nobody wants to be called names or belittled for expressing their views .. CCW I'm for it and Cyndi is right if you are for something you should be proactive in pursuit of it . I am and have been
    .

  • Joe

    I do not think it takes a genius to realize the climate changes, there also seems to be a lack of precise understanding of the causes as Nasa thinks we may see a mini ice age, magnetic north is moving south and yes if course humans should keep it clean - the ruse Is that Al Gore and his ilk want to raise taxes and line their or the government with cash - there are ways to study the issue and be clean without a tax scam that will result on electricity and heat bills quadrupling.

    AL Gore himself in congressional testimony admitted he has made money on his global warming efforts.

    http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/01/31/with-suns-activity-set-to-diminish-is-global-cooling-coming/

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    Bye Cyndi, just use that mute button you talked about earlier and we can get back to our thread.

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    NinnyMuggins, thanks for the hilarious response. Yes, I am a mugger who is cleverly using EveryBlock to keep my victims disarmed...you caught me.
    Bike Jedi, if you are indeed former law enforcement, you should know what cops tell people to do in case of a mugging: hand it over, get as much detail as you can, and go to the cops. Why? Because your safety is more important than your wallet. If someone has a gun on you, and you think your going to draw yours and take them down before they can pull the trigger...well, good luck.
    And comparing handing over your wallet to watching your wife get raped is just...well, weird. If you think those two are comparable, you've got a couple of issues to sort out, my friend.
    There's something psychological to this whole thing - some people really seem obsessed with "not becoming a victim" or loss of control or something, and I doubt if it would be cured by letting people pack a gun. It's pretty sad to read how scared some people are. You say you're "tired" of handing your stuff over...how many times have you been mugged, really? Ever think about moving to a better block?

  • Cyn Chi since 1991, East Humboldt since 2010

    Tom, do you realize who the trolls here are yet?

  • Cyn Chi since 1991, East Humboldt since 2010

    Greg - I don't understand how this discussion is helping the original poster get into some effective political action to their end goals. They now know who is on their side and can corral those people via phone or private email or any other forum into concrete goals and steps in order to carry a gun. A discussion with the pro and con does not represent any concrete political action.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Hey, Cyndi. If someone is trolling, I'm a fish that's been caught many times (and thrown back). I'm assuming that you mean trolls are people just being inflammatory and off-topic for the sport of it. I know when I encounter them on MSNBC because they either don't respond or don't listen. I don't know if I'd call too many people on this site "trolls." Mainly, I can be a hothead on some topics and I find others who do the same. I have enough patience, though, that I find we eventually cool down a bit and listen to each other, at least on this site. Things are so polarized right now that I think it's important to try to talk across the divides. We're all driven to a certain extent by fear and prejudice and none of us can claim that we own the truth. If we can admit to that, there's a chance we can talk and recognize each other as basically decent human beings. Sorry if I come off like Gandhi here, but I love conversation and there's lots of energy talking with someone you don't agree with and trying to maintain a sense of humor. And I get a kick out of your posts, so please stick around.

  • NinnyMuggins: I'm a journalist, and I'm interested in talking to you about your efforts to get Ald. Moreno to sign legislation that would permit qualified residents to carry concealed weapons. Can you email me to set up a time to talk? I'd greatly appreciate your time.

    If anyone else would like to discuss the issue, please feel free to email me, as well.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    Tom, name calling is the last resort of the desperate and a sign of a closed mind.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    Jenna count me in! How do I e-mail you?

  • Rakarwowski - I emailed you by clicking the tab that says "email me" tab on your bio page.

    Thanks! I look forward to hearing from you.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Rakarowski: If I was name calling, I apologize. In my last response to Cyndi, by the way, I was telling her why I didn't like the label of "trolls" except in cases where people post opinions but never listen or respond to others.

  • NinnyMuggins your neighbor

    The vast majority of those who are against CCW frame thier arguments around one of two perspectives. 1) The innocent person caught in the cross fire of a speculative escalating fight betwixt two armed hot heads, and 2) The victim whose circumstances would not have been helped by CCW (ambushed from behind or otherwise without warning vis a vis an Arizona Congresswoman)
    The former has less merit than the latter. Yes, there are going to be instances where a violent criminal left their house intent on victimizing someone in particular and CCW won't neccessarily prevent this.

    I frame my argument from the perspective of the violent criminal. Here we can see the benefits of CCW are realized the day applications for CCW are accepted and BEFORE people can actually legally carry weapons. It is at this point SOME, not all, but some violent criminals must think, "CCW is now legal and my hobby of punching faces and snatching iphones just got much more risky." Some of them will be discouraged from putting themselves in a position to be seriously injured or killed BEFORE a gun is brandished simply because the possibility is present.

    There. CCW offers an incentive for criminals to play nice that the inconveniences offered by the criminal justice system clearly does not.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    Tom, I am the one to apologize, My point I was try to make to you was, Cyndi's name calling is unprofessional and I am sorry for not being more clear. I will not waste my time on that any longer.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Ninny: There are a multitude of possible circumstances I can imagine where the presence of a firearm might escalate an angry or violent situation into a shooting, so I can't agree with you putting things into those two perspectives. I do agree that it might cause some potential criminals to think twice, but if you're acting out of desperation, anger, or passion, I don't know if CCW would even cross your mind. This is not an argument either of us can win. I'm against adding even more handguns into our society in Chicago and none of the arguments for it are convincing to me, and you just see it another way. So, if you do get a gun, I hope you'll never have to use it.

  • NinnyMuggins your neighbor

    My plan is simple with small goals: There are at least half a dozen of us who want the right to choose to carry a weapon for defensive purposes reading this. We should meet near Western and Armitage on a Tuesday before 02/20/2012 with the intent of inviting Alderman Moreno (flier in hand) to the town hall meeting in Logan Square. We can ask him his position on the topic (I can guess what it is now) and gauge how well it appeals to our collective sense of logic.
    We must leave little doubt in the mind of our elected official as to our best attributes: our position has an increasing number of supporters amongst his constituency and we are HIGHLY organized.
    The plan is easy to organize; more so than the goals. What should the goals be? Whether we have a long discussion in the Alderman's office or we get shuffled out the door in 2 minutes; I feel that if the Alderman realizes this issue is as big or bigger than most AND many of us plan on having our voting records reflect this, then my goals will have been met. After the meeting we can come up with other, larger goals.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    Tom, If we can not change your mind, will you at least let us try CCW to lower crime. If it does not work, I will agree with you and work to stop it. Remember the criminals all ready have CCW.

  • Joe

    Tom, Thankfully we do not need to rely on anyone's "imagination" or their "beliefs" or their "hopes of change" we have 49 other states worth of stats and facts, these stats and facts can be used in a scientific way; the presence of a CCW permitted firearm has not caused a shooting because of an escalation during an angry or violent situation - the study I have seen were 33 cases of a permit holder in Florida committed a violent crime and less than half used a firearm however the study also pointed out permitted firearms saved 100's of people from being victims the same study pointed out Police officers shot 300 some innocent people. This pie in the sky ideal of no guns is fine but its not going to happen - I think we can all support better controls around how guns are sold, there is no reason why the government should not be requiring a FOID type back ground check or a CCW type back ground check before someone can buy a weapon. This I have no doubt would make it much harder for nuts or criminals to get a gun or at least increase the cost for them to get one. But to say you can imagine a permit holder will use their weapon because they are in a heated situation just does not happen and its not my imagination that tells me so.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Joe: As I said before, and cited above, there are other studies that question the effectiveness of CCW in reducing crime. It is debatable and "science" doesn't side with pro or con. So, I don't appreciate the "pie in the sky" remarks, because I'm not a goo-goo. This is an emotional issue for everyone, and what people think generally depends on their view of the world. So, I respect your opinion and I think we'll have to leave it at that.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Rakarwowski: I'm too busy to organize the sort of grassroots lobbying that Ninny is doing, so I will just see what happens if the law gets passed. Actually, it would be more interesting to sit down and have a beer (I sound like Obama here) and see what has brought us to such different conclusions. Seems we've both lived in the city a long time and probably have experienced many of the same things. Yet I can't see carrying a gun and you can. Go figure.

  • Inactive user

    Logan Square Auditorium
    Feb 20 CCW Town Hall Meeting
    (see post above)

    Be there!

  • Joe

    Tom, I respect everyone's viewpoint but I do not accept this as a viewpoint. I watch a street light turn green, yellow and red this Is not a viewpoint it is what happens. I have read 20 plus studies and not seen an example of a permitted weapon being used at a place where a permit was required against a random victim because of an escalation. If you have please provide the link to the example , help me become better educated, thank you.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Cyndi you diminsh only yourself by doing that . and to try to team with someone else shows insecurity ...@ Tom ..You are one of the best people out there for keeping things civil even when you disagree withthem ..So why did you Thank Cyndi for the Troll comment ..That's not like you . Everyone play nice . We are all in the same sandbox here and it's called Chicago.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Jason . The rape comment was a tad over the top . I was just trying to show the fallacy of giving up and just reporting the crime to the Police . If that is your choice I respect that . Yes I am an ex Sheriff . How many times have I been mugged... twice score.. me 1 muggers 1 . In my defense the first time I was only about 13 . I have also stopped two Purse snatchings Downtown. One before I was on the force . That one involved a lenghty foot chase and a side detour through a Midas Muffler shop . I have also stopped a domestic on the Blue line . I'm not saying if someone mugged me I would be succesful in stopping them . I am saying if I was armed I would stand a better chance . If I thought I had a good chance of thwarting a mugging of myself , or someone else , I would do it . If not I would try to evade . I am quite aware of what Police tell people to do in these circumstances . I also know they tell them this because most people aren't equipped to deal with a situation like this . I am not the bravest or baddest and that is not what I am trying to portray . What I am , is fed up with seeing all that crap happen to good people . That is why I would try to step up if I had a good chance .One other thing there is nothing weird about what I said , just a little over the top . It was a valid response to your depiction of giving in and just reporting it to the Police . I used it to show that sometimes the bad guys want more then money and to ask , what would you do then ?I don't have any issues to sort out . Thank you for your concern . You also said...." It's pretty sad to read how scared some people are" . The people who support CCW aren't the ones who seem scared ...rather proactive .

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    Tom I am ready for that beer when you are, name the bar, time and date and I will be there in the stool next to yours. I am tired of battling crime and a cold beer, listening to your point of view on this subject will lighten my day.

  • Karen Brooklyn transplant with midwest roots

    Hi neighbors: First, thanks for this great thread everybody!

    My 2 cents; we need MORE COPS. LOTS MORE COPS!!! Period!. Not carry permits. (Though my BFs elderly uncle offered to give shooting lessons to gang bangers to reduce collateral damage)

    Seriously, Chicago needs to spend federal stimulus $ on cops ... instead of blacktop & concrete.

    BTW, I recently moved from the uber PC Park Slope, Brooklyn where blog traffic features long threads about whether or not to assign gender to a child's hat found in the park, etc. So I loved ticking off stroller moms by telling them how much better I felt, just "knowing I was carrying." BUT I REALLY DIDN'T MEAN IT :)

  • Karen Brooklyn transplant with midwest roots

    PS. I'm friends with the NYC Chief of Department who told me the LAST thing cops want is more gun permits issued.

    AND be real. This is Chicago. We INVENTED drinking here. So do the math.

  • Inactive user

    The days of spending more money than we have are over. The city and state are bankrupt.

    No more cops are coming...

    As far as cops view on CCW the vast majority of Illinois Police Associations publicly endorsed the CCW bill. Let me know if you want links to the endorsements.....

  • Inactive user

    Ah what the heck, I will make it easy for you....

    http://www.myfoxchicago.com/dpp/news/metro/illinois-association-cheifs-police-support-legalizing-concealed-carry-proposal-20110331

    Please note the quote in the following article "Of the dozen area law enforcement leaders contacted by The Courier-News, none said they opposed concealed carry"

    http://couriernews.suntimes.com/news/6899128-418/local-police-give-support-to-conceal-carry.html

  • thedom Chicagoan

    For the liberty minded among you all, a timely piece from Cato Institute on the subject:

    http://shar.es/fCT2i

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    You mean the Cato Institute founded by Charles Koch of the infamous Koch Brothers?

    And by the way, we're all "liberty minded."

  • thedom Chicagoan

    Not quite. Apparently Koch helped fund it, Edward Crane is credited as the founder.

    Anyway, you say that as if it is a bad thing. And Soros funds MoveOn and Buffet, Google and the Pritzker's back Obama. Your point is what?

    Jason, please add something relevant to the neighborly conversation other than innuendo.

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    Pardon me. Charles just funded Cato, and his brother David sits on the Board of Directors.
    It was just an easy, shorthand way of indicating that they are not an organization that is going to produce an objective study on a political issue. The Cato Institute has a well-known right wing agenda/bias.
    You presented a source, I called its validity into question. That is fair and relevant in an open discussion like this. Any more questions, feel free to ask. :)

  • Joe

    Jason,
    studies are studies and any bias in a study must be pointed out by reading the study and pointing out the issues with the study. It is bias to say any study funded by x or done by x organization is flawed. So if you are against bias I would suggest you start with yourself.

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    I respectfully disagree. I wouldn't cite a MoveOn study on this issue and expect it to be taken as objective.
    BTW, the same goes for Fox News links.

  • Joe

    you can cite a move on study - but a person would have to actually read the study to find fault with it. Your Fox News statement proves my point.

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    You can try to win an argument, or you can try to change people's minds - they're two different things. Citing sources with obvious, well-known right-wing agendas might help you win an argument, but you're not going to change minds. Even if the study itself is 100% correct, it won't be taken seriously.
    Unsubscribing now, so feel free to get back to your main subject.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    When you know a research organization has a strong bias to start out with, it should kick your skepticism up one notch. Especially if a study is heavily funded by someone trying to prove a point. Because most research studies are very complicated, it usually takes a critique from other researchers to understand how the bias entered into how the study was constructed or how the data was interpreted. I have no expertise of my own to do this. This is the realm of science, where scientists are constantly vetting or trying to replicate each others' studies. I work in academia and I trust academic researchers because I see how they must be disciplined. They must allow their methods and data to be open for review if they want to be taken seriously by their colleauges. Even if you have no expertise, though, it's easy enough to do research on the internet to see whether or not a study and its conclusions are generally supported or highly contested by the rest of the scientific community. That said, absolutely everyone has a bias of some kind. Otherwise we'd all be like Dr. Spock on Star Trek.

  • Doug vanderHoof Neighbor in GGNA, video producer

    Just so the record is clear, Spock was half-human between the ears, and not to be confused with the baby guru of the 1950's, Dr. Benjamin Spock. Sorry to come on so strong but this CCW discussion is important and I didn't want it clouded with misstatements, 'k?
    Doug vanderPedant

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Thanks, Doug, you're absolutely right. Spock from Star Trek was not a doctor. He had received his Master's degree and was in his 34th year of working on his dissertation at the time of his death. In Episode 12, "Spock Takes a Vacation," he returns to Earth circa 1953 and tries to convince his baby doctor namesake to adopt the Vulcan principles of child rearing, which include convincing a child that it is illogical to defecate in your own clothing.

  • Joe

    Good points Tom, people in acedamia peer review each others content they do not say things like professor x is this or that so the content must be flawed so I will not bother to review it. This principle of attacking the messenger not the mesaage is common among totalitarians - saul alinsky, trotsky, Stalin, Hitler etc..... I believe it was mlk who said people should be judged based on the content of their character not the color of their skin. If you see flawed content please point it out that is how we learn and improve but to ignore content and not review it at all because of the color of the skin is not a value to aspire to.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    I agree, Joe. But I wouldn't call Saul Alinsky a totalitarian, unless you know something I don't know. He was a community organizer who fought for the poor. He never joined socialist, communist, or any political groups. He was the father of modern community organizing and his methods are used by both the right and the left. He is part of the rich history of our city. Lately Newt has been gratuitously bringing up his name and attaching it to attacks on Obama, who never worked with him since he died in 1972. It's clever, though, because he was Jewish and has one of those foreign-sounding names that play good in the South.

  • Karen Brooklyn transplant with midwest roots

    Hmm.

    Here's an example of how to tick off EVERYBODY in one sentence. ENJOY.

    "Nobody ever heard of Saul Alinsky except in this 3rd world midwestern cowtown that wishes it were the second city."

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Ha! Who said that, Karen?

  • Joe

    Tom, I read his book "rules for Radicals" if you did you would know he advocated for the use of messenger attacking.
    Saul Alinksy taught organizers to ridicule opponents when the arguments of their opponents could not be refuted by logic, evidence or argument. He advocated denying the truth or just plain lying. In Alinksy's world, the end always justified the means.

    What a great guy in his own words: On the opening page of Rules for Radicals, Alinksy quotes himself saying, "Let us not forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgment to the very first radical: from all our legends, mythology, and history (and who is to know where the mythology leaves off and history begins - or which is which), the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom -- Lucifer."

    "The Radical may resort to the sword but when he does he is not filled with hatred against those individuals whom he attacks. He hates these individuals not as persons but as symbols representing ideas or interests which he believes to be inimical to the welfare of the people." (Alinsky 1946: 23)

    The above quote is the same principle as attacking the messenger.
    He advocates killing those because they are symbols that represent ideas contrary to his - is this not the same thing as Hitler said in his book? Hitler killed Jews because of what they represented not for the content of their ideas or as individuals (in his eyes)
    SAME THING!

  • Karen Brooklyn transplant with midwest roots

    Seriously, I am very aware of the crime around here. And worried too. 2 robberies in the Chase branch less than a block from me in 10 day.

    I just have a hard time with vigilante justice and am even more worried about carry permits for my nabe being handed out like parking stickers.

    Would that mean if my friends from another neighborhood visit I could give them temp. permits good from 6pm-6am if the they fill in the date?

    I don't think spending on cops is a waste of money. It is a matter of priorities. There is way too much "keep your hand off my stack, Jack" thinking here.

    And there is a staggering amount of corruption in this city & state amount to a "mob tax." More mind blowing than in my previous home in Brooklyn, which I thought was the winner, haha.

    Maybe if that were reduced we could "afford" other basic city services whose lack in Chicago neighborhoods is shameful: like 2X weekly garbage pick-up, clean streets, 'paved' alleys, rat control, etc.

    And maybe we could demand the other services taken for granted in NYC & the North Shore burbs; like decent Post offices & mail service, full power electricity even in summer, decent cell phone reception.

    AREN'T YOU ANGRY THAT WE ARE BEING CHEATED WHILE THE DOWNTOWN IS LIKE THE EMERALD CITY, OZ FOR OUT OF TOWNERS?

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Well...these are pretty selective quotes. And I would say that most soldiers going into battle aren't attacking enemy soldiers for personal reasons, but because they represent the power that they are attacking. Alinksy attacked the forces that were oppressing the lives of poor people. This is a far cry from Hitler who lived by a myth of Aryan superiority and exterminated people wholesale. I admire you for getting through Alinsky's book--I couldn't. I've done organizing and briefly thought about labor organizing. But when I started reading into some books recommended by a labor prof I realized I didn't have the stomach to continually force conflict and frame every issue into us versus them. I'm much better at facilitating collaboration than playing hardball.

  • Karen Brooklyn transplant with midwest roots

    Tom: I made up the quote . And you gotta admire Newt for being such a talented demagogue. Imagine courting the neo-cons (yet another code word for Jewish), while ticking off the right wing nuts and tea baggers with references to Alinsky. Man sure knows his history:)

    Tom & Joe: I admire BOTH of you for even knowing about the Alinsky book. I can't read that stuff though. Can't take sanctimony from either side.

    Joe: You are a very thoughtful & concerned poster. I wish I were more of an historian or I would suggest readings you may like. But know that politicians & polemicists often make use of partial truths & untruths (the BIG LIE). If repeated enough, people come to believe them.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    Newt brings up Alwinsky in regards to Obama because Obama has often cited him and his book as major influences . He and Axelrod use and espose many of the principals from that book . My own belief after reading most of it is that Alwinsky is a Socialist . It doesn't matter whether he ever officilally joined a group . His Ideology is Socialist in nature . I don't have a clue what this has to do with the topic ...Just saying . Personally not a fan of Alwinsky or his principals .

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Bike Jedi: This is how the conversation breaks down. You call Alinski a "socialist" meaning what? That he espouses the total takeover of the means of production by the state in the name of the people? I doubt it. But by labeling someone a socialist it seems you're dismissing him, as well as anyone who cites him as a source of inspiration, as being some sort of radical ideologue. How many of us are either 100% socialist or 100% free market capitalist? Would you do away with all social security, medicare, medicaid, Pell grants, graduated income taxes, public education, farm subsidies, rights to form unions, food stamps, the National Science Foundation, the National Institute of Health, Food and Drug Administration and so on? In the case of Obama, if he were a socialist he would have nationalized the banks instead of bailing them out. The most radical people in politics today are the capitalist fundamentalists who want to starve the government into ineffectiveness by slashing its revenues and eliminate all trade and business regulations under the mistaken notion that the free hand of the market will solve all our problems. And they propose this with a straight face AFTER the economic collapse following the most massive accumulation of wealth in the hands of the few since pre-Depression. Now that's what I call a radical ideology. So, let's assume neither of us are flaming radicals and leave the name calling to the politicians.

  • Joe

    Good points Tom, people in acedamia peer review each others content they do not say things like professor x is this or that so the content must be flawed so I will not bother to review it. This principle of attacking the messenger not the mesaage is common among totalitarians - saul alinsky, trotsky, Stalin, Hitler etc..... I believe it was mlk who said people should be judged based on the content of their character not the color of their skin. If you see flawed content please point it out that is how we learn and improve but to ignore content and not review it at all because of the color of their skin is not a value to aspire to.

  • Joe

    All those government programs are failures and should be eliminated.

    All of those programs expanded beyond their original intent and are now not sustainable - if you do the math you will see that if you taxed everyone at 100% and every company at 100% there is not enough money to fund Medicare and ss, even if defense spending is 0. This is the history of man that we keep repeating, the cycle continues. Just a few days ago India and china agreed to trade in rupees instead of the dollar, the fed buys almost all us treasury debt in effect printing money and the only reason the us is the only country that can print money is because it is the worlds currency for trade and that is ending and when it does you will regret relying on government. This country was founded by people that risked their lives to flee the very thing we have become - dependent on a 3rd party - a king, a dictator, a slave owner, a goverment benefit Its all the same.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Come on, Joe. All the government programs I mentioned are failures? By what measure? For instance, if we got rid of NIH and NSF we'd come to a standstill in producing the scientific and medical discoveries that industries profit from. I know this. I talk with pharmaceutical corporations who want the research from basic bench science, proof of concept testing, and early phase medical testing, because they will only spend their money on patentable processes and drugs, and beta phase testing. Just the other day some harmful drugs got pulled off the market in Europe after the damage was done, but they were never marketed here because the FDA said they weren't adequately tested. And Medicare is one of the most efficiently administered health programs we have, much more efficient than private health insurance. (Providers who defraud Medicare is another story.) The social benefits we have in this country are, and always have been, a remedial for a free market system that goes through boom and busts cycles and displaces workers. Social benefits make this tolerable. The fact that people are living longer and that there is a big bump of baby boomers that are getting old puts a strain on the system, but it is not an indictment of a bad program. The same can be said about the rising costs of medical care. We have the brains and the ingenuity and the wealth in this country to make it through this economic crisis and to reconfigure social programs, but it will only get done if the right and the left can move beyond their current political theater.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    You are right in one respect , my discription of Alinsky was flawed . He was an Angry Anarchist Socialist . If you took a poll of everyone in this country who knows of him I bet at least 80% would describe him as such . The principlesl he esposed such as Lying being accepted as fact , and using any means necessary whether they are ethical or not cut's against the grain of what is a FREE America or a free Society. This isn't only my view but the view of many Liberal Political Scientist from Chicago.. Andrew Dunne Ex U of C prof of Poly Sci and Author of... International Theory to the Brink and Beyond ...called him just that . As well as Mort Kaplan who wrote the foreword to the aforementioned book . Andrew is a friend of mine . To answer your other questions . I would change Soc Sec and Medicare , and I would definetely do away with Socialist Public Unions .This States future lies in the balance of whether we change the Unions here . Why do you think the Unions are fighting so hard in Wisc and Ind . They know they are about to be exposed for the money laundering scheme they are . this will be perfectly juxtaposed against our Dems Unions, Taxes and Regulations that have chased 61,000 jobs out of Illinois since Quinn protected the Unions and raised taxes . You can go to the Il Policy Institutes website for all the data on that . You say the most radical people in politics are Capitalist fundamentalists covers and indicts a wide swath of people and shows your Ideological bent as well as my statements show mine .

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    Also , If you believe anyones accumulation of wealth is what made the markets collapse I would disagree and point to the Social Engineering started by Carter with the Community Redevlopment act which started the Subprime disaster . I would also point to Clinton repealing the Glass Steigle ACT and his ATTY GENL Janet Reno threatening the banks with Fed Discrimination Lawsuits to write those bad loans to minorities and poor people ,The banks knew it was a bad idea to continue to write loans to people who didn't have a prayer to pay them but Reno TOLD them to do it or else face Lawsuits ... because don't you know it's their right to own a home whether they've earned it or not . Couple that with Barney Frank covering and Shielding For Fannie and Freddie . Is a much more compelling case for the cause of the economic crash .rather then some people who accumulated wealth . I would guess you are against people being Super rich . I would also guess you buy into all the classwarfare rhetoric that is dividng us rather then uniting us . In that you would have some companions who support that argument . None other then the great thinker Rosanne Barr agrees with that as well

  • Inactive user

    Could this thread get anymore off topic?

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    I don't know what any of this has to do with CCW so I will apologise to the original poter NinnyMuggins . to tie it in a nice bow . Im sure Alinsky would have something in common with people like Hitler , Stalin , Chavez , Rosi Oddonnell , and Obama as all would oppose CCW . I support it and I will be at the meeeting ..

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    http://www.morningsun.net/opinions/community_opinions/x1920332429/Was-Joe-McCarthy-right .........this is an interesting take on Alinsky..now back to our regular Program CCW ..good thing ...Gun Ban Hitler and Stalin liked it ..that's all I need to know

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    Sorry Greg my bad ..I didn't start that but I did help that

  • Joe

    All good points Tom people in the gov do good things and corporations do benefit from gov entities but you ignored the point, dependencies and math. The IRS budget is larger than the FBI the gov should protect us but it chooses to spend more money taking from us. Do the math no reengineering will fix it, i have moved beyond political talking points and I see the truth, if you believe in government you believe in a false god, its a con game, do the research and you will see behind the curtain.
    A government and or crony capitalism caused every problem, if you really believe a political party is looking out for you or a union or any group, please. Union bosses make much more money than union members, nancy pelosi husband is wall street guy that has access to Inside info, goldman sachs was obamas largest donor none of this is even hidden its all in the open but yet people just parrot the talking points and happily vote there way to more dependency. Anyone nice discussion everyone but i am done if anything please do the research read the source material and make your decisions with eyes wide open. By the way, Tom are you an election judge?

  • Wow -- Fox News has more of an impact than I even realized...

    But seriously, I'd like to thank the participants in this thread for at least getting me to think beyond my knee-jerk "more guns are bad" reaction. I can't say I've changed my mind, but at least I can now consider the possibility that CCW might reduce crime just because criminals might think twice if they thought their potential victims might be armed.

    And Tom G -- I'm SO stealing your comments on socialism. Well said.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    Karen the city and state are broke.Soon we will be down to 50 % of man power with CPD. I would not be on this thread if we had an officer assigned to every block. No pun intended.

  • Inactive user

    @RAKAR Just one of the reasons almost EVERY police organization supports CCW.

  • Beach and Homan - 30 Years 30 Year resident HP, 60 Year, Lifelong Chicago Res

    Chicago is NUMBER 1, with a bullet.

    Congratulations, Chicagoans. Chicago now has the distinct honor of having the HIGHEST MURDER RATE in the United States!

    http://www.bet.com/news/health/2012/02/01/chicago-has-highest-murder-rate-in-the-u-s.html

  • Inactive user

    Thank GOD those strict gun laws are working so well!

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    Thank You B and H, guess that proves crime is not going down in Chicago, and that the criminals are learning that police officers on the street are at an all time low and only criminals have guns. Do you think Chicago would be the MURDER CAPITAL OF USA if CCW was allowed. Did you also know that Chicago holds the title of the 6th most miserable city in the USA. Is there a way to find out how many are killed a year by guns because CCW is illegal? OK let's not try anything to stop the violence, just close our eyes, lock our doors and wish the criminals would just go away! Have a nice day.

  • Beach and Homan - 30 Years 30 Year resident HP, 60 Year, Lifelong Chicago Res

    Most of the numbers are in the linked article.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    Just close your eyes and wait for the bad guys to go away . When I was growing up here it seemed we had a better sense of community . I also read that study on miserable cities , and was not happy about it . This city is becoming a city of haves and have nots . Most of the haves belong to the ruling party elites . I think the others are more and more viewing themselves as Tax Slaves . The problem is that we are getting less and less in services as we are paying more and more in Taxes . whats really dumb is with all the new Taxes Quinn and Preckwinkle and Little Lord Emanuel heap on us they still can't properly man the Police Dept . In fact they are making a boatload of cuts to that dept . I feel safer already . I think these things are affecting the Quality of life in Chicago . It is also why I think CCW may help . We are going to have to be aware of the world around us and what playing field our so called Rulers are leaving us . Or we can all hide inside our homes and pray the bad guys don't break in

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    OK, this thread is incredibly off-topic and filled with vague generalities, talk about Fannie & Freddie, Glass Steagall, Nancy Pelosi, Janet Reno, Goldman Sachs, taxes, unions, Medicare, the FDA, and even a comparison of Hitler and Rosie O'Donnell (???)

    So here's some data about homicides. "We're number one in murders" isn't the whole story.

    - Per CPD, only 10% of Chicago's homicides occurred during armed robberies. That's about 43 per year for 2.6 million people.

    - 76% of murder victims were black, 18.3% were Hispanic, and only 5.6% were white. The vast majority is black-on-black violence on the south and west sides.

    - If you're white in Chicago, you have a 3 in 100,000 chance of being a homicide victim. If you're Hispanic it's 11, and if you're black it's up to 34 - more than 10 times the rate for whites.

    - If I was better with Google maps, maybe I could overlay these:
    Chicago Homicides map:
    http://g.co/maps/9fyv4
    Chicago gang territories:
    http://www.uic.edu/orgs/kbc/maps/Gangstoday.html

    So do you all think gang members on the south and west sides would stop shooting each other if you get CCW?

    Also, per AP: "A 2009 Illinois State Police report cited 'significant information gaps' in the state's ability to detect and screen out people with serious mental illnesses who might go on a shooting rampage.
    Illinois falls short in its reporting of psychiatric hospital admissions to the FBI as required by a federal law passed after the 2007 Virginia Tech shootings, according to the ISP report. Gaps also exist in reporting by health professionals and nursing homes of dangerous mentally ill people who should be disqualified from gun ownership under Illinois law."

    Finally, no one seems to have pointed out to the original poster that Alderman Moreno can't do any such thing. There are no such permits in Illinois.

    And to the rest of you, Gov. Quinn has pledged to veto any CCW bill. So you can try to get a republican governor, but until then, it ain't happening.

  • VictorPaul Logan Square Resident

    @Jason Walker . So what your saying is white people don't need a CCW ,WTF? . What they do need to enforce is the laws we already have & that those psychiatric hospitals to start reporting, god forbid somebody with a mental problem kills somebody with their car or a kitchen knife! They might stop issuing drivers licenses &and make us use sporks . I do agree with you that Ald. Moreno can't do anything for us, I'm surprised that got by.

  • Inactive user

    @jason get ready for it. We were six votes short of a veto proof CCW last year and four of those no's have agreed to come around. There are also two lawsuits in process that will ultimately win and give Illinois constitutional carry which would give citizens the right to carry without Quinn's signature.

    2012 is the year that the last state in the United States starts enforcing the Constitution.

  • Inactive user

    I'm totally against CCW. I think there's a lot of hysteria behind the impulse to get everyone armed and in fact I guess that in some kind of civilian shoot-out it would look more like a mass murder than a self-defense situation. Criminals won't think twice, they'll just be more brazen. Please, people, get a grip. Do you really want to sit down in a Starbucks and wonder who's go the firepower under his jacket? I sure don't. And saying that because Chicago doesn't have a CCW that's why we have the highest murder rate confuses correlation with causation. This ain't the wild west, people.
    I would hate to be on a college campus where kids were allowed to be armed--again, another hysterical reaction to a one-in-a-million event that might have been prevented (thinking of Va Tech) if people had paid attention to the reports on the kid in the first place.
    What WOULD be good would be to give the police enough money to do their jobs properly, be armed properly, and come down hard on people with guns, especially automatic weapons and all the other massive firepower 2nd amendment nuts seem to think is necessary.
    Homes with guns are more dangerous than those without, and more people are killed by people they know than not. So consider that. Put a little rationality in your life, not firepower.

  • Inactive user

    It's not hysteria, the CCW fight has been going on for years. I think a lot of us are tired of the Chicago machine crushing our constitutional rights. The Supreme Court shoved Chicago's hand gun ban down (after Daily spent millions of our tax dollars fighting a loosing battle), and they will do it again with CCW. The cases are in place, the lawsuits are filed, and it's just a matter or time. Fourth nine other states have seen this and have given its citizens their Second Amendment rights, about time Illinois does too.

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    Thanks for the info on the vote count, Greg.
    In all actuality, I'm not against gun rights generally. I suppose I'm just not trusting enough of the strangers I encounter to think they would handle a gun properly. Given the way they handle their cars, stagger around drunk, etc., I just don't want to have to worry about one more thing.

  • Inactive user

    Just because everyone else is walking off a cliff doesn't mean we have to as well. The hand gun ban was a great thing Daley did and we should strive to keep similar bans. Again, give law enforcement what they need, reform drug laws to conform to what society actually wants (remember Prohibition? There would have been no Capone, et al without it) and address the problems that make people think they need guns.
    The Constitution lets people have guns because there was no standing army or law enforcement; that's an amendment that needs amending.

  • Inactive user

    @Jason totally fair concerns. I would just say look at what has happens in the other 49 states and your concerns may be reduced.

  • Joe

    Good points Jason and William but the facts for what actually happens from the other 49 states show that what you worry about does not happen. Police shoot innocent people all the time, and I would feel safer knowing anyone could be armed because one thing we know for sure in Chicago is that criminals are already armed and police may not show up for an hour. I think the hysteria is with all this made up shoot out scenario that has not happened in the other 49.

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    Thanks Joe - all I can say is: if we get CCW I truly hope you're right.

  • Inactive user

    @willard Daleys handgun ban was a blatant slap at citizens rights in Chicago and the Supreme Court said that in their decision that overturned it.

  • Joe

    Jason, me too I honestly share your concern but it doesn't happen. This is why (my opinion only) i have 15 years experience in the military i have served in combat I have no doubts I can myself better than a percentage of police and I consider myself responsible and competent which means i know the liability of my actions and how It would impact others my family fellow citizens etc.... I would probably get a CcW but I do not see myself using It because of the liabilty - so I would assume others that get it have the same frame of reference and this explains the lack of irresponsible behaviour by permit holders. I have not looked at qualification criteria states use but training, medical, clearance and no convictions and insurance of some kind is what i would expect.

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    That's definitely the profile I would hope for in a CCW holder. I just don't know if I trust this absurdly corrupt and inefficient state/county/city to get that stuff right.
    Fingers crossed.

  • Cable Mail Lifetime Logan Square Resident

    I've been reading this thread for awhile and have added either. But I would like to know how everyone can believe in all these polls and studies as being totally acturate? I have told by some officials I have met that a lot of times studies and polls are adjusted so that they will in favor of the group requesting it. Also, how is it that many say if one or more are carrying or owning guns that they will go on a wild shooting spree? How about auto owners? An auto is and can be considered a dangerious weapon and can cause a major bloody massacure. Are we going to say that in the next hour or days all of us auto owners are going to get behind the wheel and go on a rampage? Come on people, get real.

    Out lawed weapons = outlaws only have weapons.
    How about stamping serial numbers on all our kitchen knives and registering them? But you can't own or purchase one until you take an expensive safety course first?

    Ridiculous? Go back and re-read this thread. Then think reality and safety for all. Not everybody has a loose brain. Gun have bee owned safely long before any of us were born.

  • Joe

    How about all of us go do a paintball outing?
    Paint or be painted!

    Good thread everyone.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Jason yes the thread deviated off topic but look who started that and as Tom G stated this is nothing compared to other forums ..pretty tame deviations and the responses were the same . The responses were answers to the deviations and most brought it back to topic . @ Willard Dix you mentioned VA Tech ..maybe if someone there was armed they could've ended that . I think the people's concern against CCW that some people of dubious judgement might arm themselves is a good point especially in a state which is run so bad as ours . I however agree with the overwhelming evidence of 49 other states that it is a positive thing . Coupled with the overwhelming experience and cost of Daley's handgun ban and how that made our citizenry here totally unsafe ...I'll vote for CCW

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    Yes we are a little off the start of this thread, but the main goal is CCW. No Alderman can make CCW legal or make permits for the listed police districts. So how can we get CCW in Illinois? It starts with this meeting on the 20th. The people against CCW on this thread will not change their minds even with the over whelming evidence (Chicago again MURDER CAPITOL USA Etc, etc.) that more good comes from CCW than bad. Now let us be heard from the Aldermans office to the Governor's, if you are elected offical who violates the voters civil rights and waste out tax dollars doing so your days are numbered! I think it is time for a Republican Governor! Quinn said he would veto CCW, raised our taxes 60% and use our money to fight the Constitution and now I hear he going to give illegal aliens our tax dollars to pay for school. I can not afford to pay for my childs schooling! City services cut in half (police, libraries, bodies at the morgue,city workers pensions), taxes raised to the roof and jobs leaving the state because of it and we are left to defend ourselves. I love Chicago and I do not want to leave it and watch it self destruct like Detroit. I just want an even playing field with the criminal who is aready has a gun. Most people in the other 49 states do not carry guns and do not have to and enjoy the peace that CCW brings because the criminal does not know if they are carring or not. I have been victimized enough and I vote and the Constitution backs me! Politicians I hope your reading this thread, your jobs are on the line with it!

  • Cable Mail Lifetime Logan Square Resident

    I agree, enough of this policital BS. Our freedom and rights have been sucked out from under us long enough. Its time that we stand up against our government officials that don't seem to be defending us or the Constitiution. Also amending the Constitution needs to STOP. It seems that if some rule or line doesn't fit for these officials needs, they seek to get it amended in a way for the officials to profit from. If the Constitution worked well for many years for our forefathers, and they had problems and a crashing economy back then but worked to recover, then why does it need changing these days? Some of these free living programs also need to be changed if we are to recover. Too many depend on free money (Welfare and Link Cards) and free medical care when you see them driveing nice $40,000 SUVs and buying large 50+ inch TVs and surround systems. Also two or three carts of groceries and whip out a Link Card to pay and you stand there with three or four items in hand and those cost you the last ten bucks you have and you still need to get gas for your ten or twelve year old Sentra.

    It doesn't matter to me as to what policital party a canidate is on because I don't vote party. I vote for the person in which I feel can handle the job. If he can't, then he needs to be removed and replaced with someone that can. A business would do that to us if we didn't handle our job correctly. I am so sick of these canidates that are on the TV running today cutting one another up and down. Why do they need to slander one another? Sickening. All they need to do is get on stage and sell themselves. Tell what they can do and how they see about getting it done. I don't need to hear them tell me about the running mate life or sexual infidelity. Gosh, what happened to the God fearing America that this country had been built from?

    LET'S GET BACK TO THE BASICS ! ! !

  • Inactive user

    OK, so: Bike Jedi--I'm pretty certain the body count would have been far greater if everyone in that room or nearby had started shooting. People seem to think that gun-totin' folks will react coolly and rationally and remember all their training and just aim for the bad guy and that's just not rational. Once the killing starts, how will you know who's the bad guy and who's the defender of the 2nd Amendment? Statistics tell us that overall crime is way down, so the panicky yowling to give us all guns doesn't even make no sense. Too many people watching too many apocalypse movies.
    Karwowski, putting Republicans in office would be like putting bank robbers in charge of the banks. They may talk the line you want them to talk about being tough on crime, supporting the 2nd Amendment, and so on, but they care mostly about making sure they and their friends benefit from the goodies. They do not care about middle or working class people. They even say that out loud! I can't fathom why anyone who isn't a plutocrat or wants to be one would vote for them.
    Cable Mail, there hasn't been a rash of Constitution amending lately, so I'm not sure where your ire comes from. It takes a whole lot of time and effort to amend it, which is what the Founders intended. So what's your beef there? (Even so, I'd love to see some major modifications to the 2nd Amendment, like being required to serve in the armed forces if you want a gun.) Also, I think you confuse the Constitution with the economy--it's capitalism that's the problem, not the Constitution. And I say that as a fan of capitalism! It simply has many flaws--it's the worst form of economic structure there is except all the others. And how do you know people with LINK cards are driving expensive cars? Do you follow them around? In the richest country in the world, it seems like we should be able to take care of ALL our population at some reasonable level and not worry about things like that.

  • Joe

    Willard , nice propaganda, republicans are greedy hmmmmm no examples of dems ripping off anything come to mind? Individuals should be judged by their actions not associations attacking groups or associations is a common tool of the collectivist and totalitarian. We are not responsible to take care of anyone, if everyone took care of themselves then we would not have to worry about politicians ripping us off ...... Read tje constitution is says nothing about forming groups for the purpose of living off the work of another. If I want to help my fellow man i will do so voluntarily, using gov power to collect money to dole out leads to cilorruption. Collectivist has always failed but humans keep trying.

  • Inactive user

    Since when does helping other people equal totalitarianism? That's messed up. I don't say Dems don't have some of the same corruption problems Repubs have, but give me a break... ANd yes we are responsible for others--what did we say during the Revolution? "We must all hang together or assuredly we will all hang separately." Go off the grid and have a great time trying NOT to use something that hasn't been "collectively" created by the government. I don't know what "cilorruption" is, so I won't comment on that.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    Willard where do you get your information from? You'r in Chicago where we have the most convicted felons in city hall (elected officals) than anywhere else on the planet, Blago was Governor and all Democrates and you call Republicans robbers?!?! Republicans can be criminals to, but in Chicago/Illinois, the Democrates have made it an art form right down to tearing up airport runways at 2 A.M. That's all I have to say about that!

  • Joe

    Willard, I never wrote that helping people was totalitarian. Please let me know where you are an educator so i can keep my kids away.
    Another tactic of collectivists is to change the subject. Yes there was typo and you made up something I did not write.

    Fighting a war requires teamwork and people voluntarily chose to join the team. I am not given a choice - i am forced to pay taxes then watch as corrupt politicians use my money irresponsibly and give the money away to buy votes from people organized in groups - this is totalitarian because I am forced to fund abirtions, food stanps, ss, housing, medicare, medicaid - Obama himself admits there is massive fraud but yet nothing is done to clean it up, just pandering to groyps for cash that is all i see happening - i do not want to be forced to pay for someone elses corruption and qwest for a group utopia that does not exist.

  • Inactive user

    Joe, I'm sorry that it's not possible to have a discussion with you. I'll move on to more profitable threads as of now.

  • Joe

    Willard, I saw that coming, right out of the propaganda playbook, when confronted with viewpoints or facts that are not refutable run away or kill the person, good luck comrade.
    Just to recap you said i wrote helping people was totalitarian which I did not you wrote that colonists joined together in groups which they did but did do voluntarily, it was because the British were forcing taxation and conscription upon the colonist that caused the wave of VOLUNTEERS to fight them. But what I posted was so bad you had to flee? Just apologize then move on.

  • Inactive user

    Joe don't loose sleep. Some people have their minds closed and there isn't anything you can do. Save your energy for those who may be anti, but who are at least willing to listen...

  • Anyone interested in CCW would do themselves a huge favor by reading this book:
    http://www.amazon.com/Gravest-Extreme-Firearm-Personal-Protection/dp/0936279001
    I just gave a family member (who lives in a state that allows CCW) this book.
    This book will pay for itself a thousand times over if you are serious about personally carrying concealed.

  • Inactive user

    I suggest reading Richard Hofstadter's book The Paranoid Style in American Politics to see how deeply the idea of everyone's being out to get us is ingrained in our history. It was written in the early 60s but sounds like it's describing the Palins, Pauls, and Gingriches of today. Concealed carry hysteria is just another aspect of that phenomenon.

  • Joe

    Very apt suggestion, i have read it, you have to have context and remember the word liberal and conservative had slightly different meaning vs todays liberal or conservative. A quote: He makes crises, starts runs on banks,( Obama and the dem controlled congree passed DODd frank and small banks are being closed - the bill favors large banks who rotate in and out of the treasury and fed but at the same time the propoganda from Obama is to blame banks) causes depressions, manufactures disasters, and then enjoys and profits from the misery he has produced.( Alinsky wrote in rules for radicals to do exactly this Hillary and Obama both can be quoted as saying do not let a crisis go to waste) The paranoid’s interpretation of history is distinctly personal: decisive events are not taken as part of the stream of history, but as the consequences of someone’s will. Very often, the enemy is held to possess some especially effective source of power: he controls the press; he has unlimited funds; he has a new secret for influencingthe mind (brainwashing); Liberals blame everyone else but theory own policies - the gov liabilities are 60 some trillion but its those rich people that are to blame they need to have their taxes raised despite the fact that they already pay 70% of tje bill and even taxing them at 100% would not cover 50% of the deficit. Nobody is in hysterics regarding ccw except those that do not want It passed. It is a great read and it applies very well to the modern day liberals methods as well as to Goldwater in the 60's, bottom line is politician are using their office to force their will on others which is exactly what the essay was about, its not Ron Paul or Palin that wants to use gov to force people to do x its quite the opposite they want the gov to leave individuals alone which is exactly what the essay advocates because the author was afraid goldwater was totalitarian.

  • Joe

    Remember the theme here let's not change the subject like Alinsky taught or as RH tried to do - draft an opinion to obfuscate facts.
    Individual freedom or prochoice vs gov control or use of power to coerce.
    Goldwater vs Johnson - johnson favored Vietnam war goldwater against lbj for the draft goldwater against lbj for forced gov housing projects goldwater against - the list goes on gov power forcing its will vs individual choice - prochoice!

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    Pro-choice? Not a word one associates with the Republican party.

  • Inactive user

    I think it was meant as "ability to do anything you want and to hell with everyone else because it's a free country, liberals be damned," not "ability of women to choose."

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    Or is it "ability for corporations to do whatever they want"?

  • Joe

    In terms of abortion true, i consider abortion a tie in terms of politics, prochoice for the woman or prochoice for the baby, if you ever watched an embryo being killed in the womb there would be no doubt that baby wants to live, the embryo is prochoice and It would choose life if given the chance to be asked. For myself, go ahead and have your abortion but there is no way the gov should force me to pay for it. Again the theme here is who wants to force you to live in there ideal world? In the early 60's when the aforementioned essay was written the religious right was feared because they were intolerant and autocratic part of the republican party Goldwater did not support them because of that but as a political strategy it was legitimate to paint Goldwater with that brush because they were both republican, fortunately today independent voters decide elections and this typically will keep moderte policies from giving way to force or coercive policymakers from gaining office.

  • Joe

    Wow this story is relevant, 44 states allow bars to decide for themselves if permit holders can have guns in a bar! They can't drink though.
    This guy has no record a masters degree and carried a 5 inch knife kills a guy for no reason.
    Not sure I would support ccw in bars but criminals take them to bars even Plaxico did. Stories like this kept me out of clubs since I was 25. Just plain dumb, you can pass a law against dumb but it will still happen. Geez, just awful.

    http://www.suntimes.com/10450919-418/comment-about-beer-in-a-wine-glass-reportedly-led-to-fatal-stabbing.html

  • Joe

    Jason, you do make me chuckle,
    Corporations employ people those people come from the same pool of people as government employees, volunteers, etc.. You realize that the people who make/collect money from corporations (investors or employees or the government) are people just like you. The 1% within corporations that get big bucks did not avoid paying taxes or operate unregulated or outside the reach of the legal system, corporations are made up of a ton of employees that are in the 99%. So if you want to go by sheer volume, corporations are actually a corporation belonging to the 99%, not sure how people actually believe the propaganda that your neighbor or friend that works at a corporation is to be looked at as a bad citizen ruining the world, let's avoid the boogey man and stick to some level specificity. There are bad people in any group, whether it be a company or gov or eagle scout group or church etc... "Attack the group" is a bit tiring to hear but it makes me chuckle.

  • thedom Chicagoan

    Economic and civil liberties have been slowly (and sometimes quickly) taken away...they call it boiling a frog.

    To name just a few:
    1913 Fed amend constitution to raise an income tax
    1942 Fed tax withholding
    1972 End of gold standard
    2001 Patriot Act

    A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. - George Bernard Shaw

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    Joe, Mitt Romney tried that "corporations are people" line already, and he's probably going to lose the election because of it.

    There are a few employee-owned companies, but other than that, it is like saying buildings are made up of people, or buses or trains are made up of people. No, they are vehicles used by many people, but owned and operated by a very few. That's fine, they're got the right to do so, and in fact they can do a great deal of good, including employing people.

    The problem is when those few people also "own and operate" the government that supposedly regulates them, through funding, influence peddling, etc. And while both parties are have their corporate shills, the Republicans are just baldly, openly corporatist in every possible way at the expense of their actual human constituents, letting companies pollute the air and water, giving them less safety regulations, cutting their taxes at others' expense, etc etc etc.

    Is that clearer?

  • Joe

    No Jason its not please provide a specific example.
    you completely missed the point, I said there were bad people you keep bad mouthing groups guilt by association this is tool used by bad people stop falling for It stop repeating it.
    Mayor Daly made people rich with your money he is a dem

    No more city work for  top Emanuel aide’s spouse: http://bit.ly/xlqHoZ

  • Joe

    Jason I just want to point out the irony in your statements.
    You are worried about CCW because you do not want to get shot by a stray bullet nor do you want innocent people to get shot but then later in the thread you yourself type off stray words condemning innocent people as bad because its a corporation, or Republican etc... so you yourself are in effect shooting innocent people with your words!
    There are bad people we agree and they can be found everywhere, and there are good people including good corporations and republicans, right?

  • High taxes, expensive, a bit of crime now and again??? Not enough to make me move. A bunch of Racist White People with Guns??? Gone tomorrow.

  • Inactive user

    Bingo.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Quite a lot of traffic on this thread over the weekend. Whatever the Founders' intent may have been, I've seen some strong Constitutional arguments for concealed carry and it's hard to believe that Illinois will be able to politically resist becoming the last holdout state, given the fact that the NRA has a powerful lobby, downstater Republicans will be voting on this in Springfield, and even Daley couldn't prevail against the Supreme Court. There may be a legitimate question over whether studies showing concealed weapons prevent crime adequately take account of all the important variables, but if we do get concealed carry, what if we also considered other sane ways to prevent gun violence? From a public health perspective David Hemmenway, Director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center and the Youth Violence Prevention Center had these suggestions, which he told Nicholas Kristoff, as reported in a NYT op-ed, January 12, 2011:

    • Limit gun purchases to one per month per person, to reduce gun trafficking. And just as the government has cracked down on retailers who sell cigarettes to minors, get tough on gun dealers who sell to traffickers.

    • Push for more gun safes, and make serial numbers harder to erase.

    • Improve background checks and follow Canada in requiring a 28-day waiting period to buy a handgun. And ban oversize magazines, such as the 33-bullet magazine allegedly used in Tucson. If the shooter had had to reload after firing 10 bullets, he might have been tackled earlier. And invest in new technologies such as “smart guns,” which can be fired only when near a separate wristband or after a fingerprint scan.

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    Public corporations are legally bound to act in the interest of maximizing stockholder profits, without regard for anything else. This lead to actions that are counterproductive for the community at large. It's the system that is set up wrong.
    California has had a good idea about this: a new type of corporation that can actually act in the public good. I hope it works, and catches on:
    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/greenspace/2011/10/california-benefit-corporation-law-signed.html

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    Just a guy, you should call yourself, just a Racist guy. You just declared yourself a Racist on EB and you and the Racists who thanked you do not even realize it. To think only white Racists want CCW is unbelievable, do you think that that is becaues only people of color are the ones commiting gun crimes now? When someone can not make an inteligent arguement, play the race card to stop them. Hope your not my neighbor and if you are, let me be the first to say I will help you and those that thanked you to move out of this fantastic city of people who care about one another and where we live.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    Hope this is not what you teach!

  • Joe

    yes, "just a guy" thanks for calling us all racists. Please do leave this city, your intolerance and prejudice is something you should be ashamed of.

  • Wow!! Did I step in some toes??? Sensitive much? Truth CCW goes into effect whites will start killing People of Color willy nilly because they are "scared".......sad really.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Just a Guy I will pay your bus ticket out of here . I thought your Ilk prided itself on tolerance . You are so grossly uninformed I feel embarassed for you . Please don't tell me you vote . You have all of our pity and prayers . I know I speak for everyone in the city besides of course two Reverendswho share your views . We all will pray for you ..At least the people who believe in God will . have a nice life . I don't think it's possible with your outlook

  • Joe

    What is really scary how you can come up with the below from anything in this discussion. Feel sorry for you. Peace.
    "whites will start killing People of Color willy nilly because they are "scared".......sad really."

    I

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @Willard ..how can you say that if some responsible person had been there the body count would've been Higher (. VA Tech ) Maybe the count would've been 1 or 0 as maybe the responsible citizen could've taken the bad guy out or wounded his insane butt

  • Get real folks , I'm an African-American with a better job, education and income than 90% percent of the Whites I meet and yet they have that weird guarded look about them as if I want that knock off Gucci or really bad pair of Uggs your wearing....sad but true. I know that CCW is a license to kill People of Color. Shoot outs for everyone!!! Yeah!

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Willard you wrote .".putting Republicans in office would be like putting bank robbers in charge of the banks." How would that compare to the Dems in charge of Fannie and Freddie ? or The Dems here in Chicago who steal everything ? Then they write us the check ...Speeding cameras anyone ? Someones got to pay for it right ? You also ranted about Paranoia in Politics and mention all Republicans in your example . Cute way of infering that only a Conservative is Paranoid . That's funny considering you and your ruler are the only ones that seems paranoid . You might want to include a ruler who is jinning up irrational classwarfare and envy . A ruler who divides this great nation by vilifying the very people who pay Taxes . I of course am, refering to the Private sector and Small Businesses Comapnies and Corporations . They are all being villified . OWS types have been marching on Rich peoples houses on either side of George Soros house and not bothering him ....Why is that ? Isn't he Evil and Rich also ? Your arguments are inane . It's Ok for those people to be jinned up by their ruler to hate people who worked hard to aquire wealth . There is nothing wrong with wanting to achieve whether it be wealth or education or whatever . That used to be a good positive thing . There is nothing wrong with working for profit and achieving that . I will agree that if someone breaks the law to do it they should be prosecuted .

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    Having said that , are you even aware of who is donating to your ruler ? Wall Street at a 2.5 to 1 rate over the entire Rep field Big Oil 3 to 1 ...but you thought those evil Republicans were the party of those evil institutions right ? Get informed before you embarass yourself Tell you what next time you need a job go ask the people in sec 8 to hire you ...see how that works ..You really don't live in reality . Can you explain one other thing ? What does any of your Propaganda have to do with CCW . NINNYMUGGINS you have my support . let me know how you wish to proceed . I will also be at the meeting

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    JUST A GUY is just a troll. 49 other states have CCW. Florida has issued CCW for 25 years! There are no statistics showing that CCWs have been used as "a license to kill people of color" That is a racist and inflammatory statement.

    Ironically, gun control laws were originally instituted by whites to better control blacks. Heres an interesting view on the subject:
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/poe/poe3.html

    As for signing any petition.....wake up. There is NO WAY the Chicago politicians will change their "guns are the problem" position. Daley was a master at using gun control rants to distract local media from the frequent stories on city incompetence and corruption. The public rely on rumors and emotion to formulate opinions, rather than reason and facts. Rahm will continue using the same tactic.

  • Inactive user

    Bike Jedi, you seem to be living in some fantasy world where no one panics, everyone is trained to be eternally on the alert for psychos with guns, everyone is happy to be in a roomful of armed teenagers (or old geezers or pick your age group), no one ever gets drunk or angry or just curious what might happen if he parked on a rooftop and started aiming at people, and maybe there are armed Marines everywhere to supplement individual firepower. Not a world I'd want to live in. Maybe it's a video game world but I'll take reality, thanks.
    Guns (with the exception of hunting rifles, maybe) should not be in the hands of ordinary citizens. Period. Failing that (clearly), we should have extensive background checks, a national firearms database, no loopholes for gun shows, a 28-day waiting period (or pick a similarly lengthy time), a way to link the buyer indelibly to the gun bought, and some kind of law that says if ANYONE uses your gun YOU are responsible. Furthermore: absolutely no automatic weapons of any kind or firepower above that needed for legal, sane hunting. Wrap yourself in the Constitution all you want, the Founders never imagined Uzis or AK-47s, and if they had they would have thought twice about the 2nd amendment's wording.
    And no, I'm not trashing the Constitution, but we need some sense in this debate--it's time to fix what needs fixing, and that's not the income tax. (@thedom, although I agree with you about the Patriot Act.)
    Guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people.

  • Inactive user

    I'm thinking of the Simpsons episode where Homer gets a gun. He goes to the gun store pissed off about something and demands to be sold a gun.
    Salesman: There's a 10-day waiting period.
    Homer: But I'm angry NOW!!!

    When he finally gets one and brings it home, he shoots out the lights instead of turning them off, among other things.

  • Beach and Homan - 30 Years 30 Year resident HP, 60 Year, Lifelong Chicago Res

    Fani and Freddi were gutted before the Dems took office. Read some of the newly written research on what actually happened and who benefited from the changes.

    Matt Taibbi's Griftopia is an excellent place to start: http://www.amazon.com/Griftopia-Machines-Vampire-Breaking-America/dp/0385529953

    There's a huge gene pool which needs to be both convicted and suppressed from being able to reproduce in Republicans who were directly responsible for the hell hole we now call an economy in this country and nobody wants to acknowledge the thousands of pink elephants in the room.

    The indictments are just now beginning to be written and, when this is all over, there will be a lot of formerly well-respected Republicans in our jails.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    just a guy: Get real? Hmmm... One of the saddest things I've done was pick up a young man after a night of incarceration in the Belmont lockup. The cops took him in because they thought he was stealing, when he was actually unloading musical equipment after a gig. His mother came out to tell the cops he lived there, that it was his home. Just a senior in high school, very sharp, very talented, and I don't think the kid had a mean bone in his body, so I doubt he did more than react with outrage at the cops when they slammed him against the car. Yes, he was African American and he had an awful beaten-down and numb look that I still remember, though I will never experience it myself. So, what exactly are you trying to accomplish by jumping into this conversation with the "racist" finger pointing? Start looking at these posts and you'll see some people talking to each other across divides. Stick around if you want to talk, but if you want to reaffirm your belief in racism, just keep poking with a stick and you're sure to get the response you want.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Just a guy ...you call yourself Just a guy yet brag that you are a 1% er .... I'll bet you can'teven tell a knock off Gucci . Most 1 %ers can't . the way you make it sound only us poor Hill billy white people would be wearing one of those . @ Willard if you were in that room on that day ..you're telling me you would want to stand and debate that shooter or would you like to try to take him out ? I can agree with some of the other stuff you said about background checks ..that actually sounded good . Also if you want to see the face of irrational paranoia Just read the stuff Just a guy has put out there ...I rest my case

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Tom G great comment

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    WILLARD DIX......you seem to live in a fantasy world where no one uses data and statistics to formulate public policy positions; you just use "doomsday scenarios" to scare people to your opinion.

    Of course you can come up with examples of horrible gun killings. Just as one can come up with examples of victims protecting themselves with a gun. It seems that gun-phobes like yourself dont want to talk about the successes other states that have with their CCW laws.

    As for the founding fathers...again you are in a fantasy world, imagining what they would do. I prefer to discuss what they actually DID do, and that is the second amendment.

    THOS. JEFERSON: "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

    BENJ FRANKLIN: "They that can give up liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

    And, as for "the Founders never imagined Uzis or AK-47s".....well, many of them could certainly understand that technology improves over time. Franklin was an inventor. And Jefferson was not only an inventor, but also pushed for the creating of our patent Office. Please be more respectful of our founders.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Alex Trebeck: Thanks for the warning that "just a guy" may be just a troll. I've been sucker punched many times. Only one test, though--if just a guy isn't a troll he'll give me a straight response Then I'll take it back. I'm not holding my breath, though.

  • Your all so very amusing, Everyblock where thinly veiled racist remarks thrive. Trolls occasionally speak the truth. Ask any Educated Blackman about his experience as such and he in this case I will tell you:
    If the looks I/they receive are any clue then we don't need a few thousand more guns roaming the Chicago streets. Real Talk.

    CCW would lead to wild west shoot outs on the Northside and you all know this to be true.....few thousand guns and even more drunk Cubs fans......pass me the Popcorn.

    Feed your Troll.

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    That SIMPSONS episode on guns was hilarious.

    Of course, if Homer was real, he would have been incarcerated during the first season. Snap out of the fantasy world.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Just a guy ...Not buying the educated black guy thing ..Most of my friends who fit that description certainly have nothing in common with you .They aren't haters and aren't paranoid . I really think something jaded you . If that's the case you should get to know some white people ....might change your mind

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    JUST A GUY:

    Your opinion that "CCW would lead to wild west shoot outs" is not supported by the history of CCW in other 49 states that have such laws. As I wrote in previous post: There is no statistical evidence to support your prediction.

    You seem to have problems reading. Im beginning to doubt your claims about your income.

  • hahaha won't pass anyway, the powers that be see to your core.

  • Inactive user

    @just a guy when you leave Illinois after CCW is legalized where do you plan to go? Illinois is the last state that prohibits CCW...

    Oh by the way I don't remember seeing mass racial murders in the 49 other states...

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    People, he is off the grid, I mean he's out there. Do not lower youeselves to his level.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Will D ..I'm not out there cheerleading for violent shootouts . I just think the evidence and history of 49 other States doesn't support that . I do think that in a case like Va maybe someone could've done something to stop that . I'm not supporting wild west shootouts ..just wanted to clear that up .

  • Joe

    The first reported ccw incident from wisconsin - seems a permit holder willy nilly stopped a shot gun toting robber.

    http://m.jsonline.com/news/crime/aldi-customer-wont-be-charged-in-shooting-sk42et0-138688529.html?ua=android&dc=smart

  • dcx99 Albany Park resident, husband, father, dog owner

    This is a ridiculous thread.

  • Inactive user

    Ridiculous why?

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    When people cannot argue using reason and facts, they resort to name calling.

  • Inactive user

    Apparently...

  • NinnyMuggins your neighbor

    Now rahm wants an Illinois handgun registry to (allegedly) track weapons.
    "Stats show over half of all weapons confiscated by Chicago police come from inside the state." Said rahm.
    How could he come up with a precise statistic while arguing that police need more tools to come up with these exact statistics?

  • Walk-About I Know Who You Are, & I Saw What You Did!

    Wow...alot of passion in this thread. I've been reading but not commenting until now.

    I'm not certain where I stand yet; though I think I'm leaning toward favoring CCW. I don't own a gun, but have been thinking lately about filing for a FOID.

    My building has had numerous break-ins. Even with security cams everywhere, the bad guys don't seem to mind at all. Our security cams show the thief listening carefully at the bottom of different apartment doors to see if he could hear anyone at home. I'm a little hard of hearing and I'm concerned I wouldn't even hear someone breaking in.

    Is it true, ...that most FOID applications are not granted?

  • Joe

    As of 2007 About 3 to 4 percent of the FOID applications are denied as a result of background checks.
    25 to 30 percent of the applications have errors in them
    2007, Illinois State Police processed 238,805 FOID card applications. In 2008 they processed 278,374. Most of the increase happened in October, November and December.
    From January 1 to April 29 2009, the agency has already processed 117,492 FOID ID cards (half new applications, half renewals).

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    LEFT THE BUILDING:

    You may be confusing the state law with city law. The city has much much more discretion asto who they approve and reject.

    Receiving the state FOID does not preclude you from following local ordinances. Chicago gun law info is below.

    ILLINOIS STATE POLICE - FIREARMS & FOID
    http://www.isp.state.il.us/

    CHICAGO POLICE - FIREARM REGISTRATION
    https://portal.chicagopolice.org/portal/page/portal/ClearPath/About%20CPD/Firearm%20Registration

    I would recommend you consult with some experts before you apply. A knowledgeable firearms dealer or instructor could help you avoid mistakes that would result in a rejection. And, if you do not live in a city that requires training, you should still take a gun course. You will feel infinitely better afterwards.

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990
  • Inactive user

    Hoorah for Rahm!

    Last night I attended a talk by Patrick Fitzgerald, our US Attorney, who said that every year somewhere between 10K and 12K guns are taken off the streets in Chicago. He also said that Chicago gangs are incredibly powerful and well-organized (as in having boards of directors, extensive networks, etc.), with membership estimated at anywhere from 70K to 150K, compared to a police force of 13K. Although murders have come down by half since 20 years ago (from around 900 to 450 per year), most are still concentrated in just a few areas of the city (not the North Side, of course), and that's still too many.

    I note that many of the gun deaths we hear about are random (kids being struck while sitting on their porches) or gang-related drug or revenge killings (Fitzgerald told a story of working with police who posted photos of killers in one row and those killed in a row below and noting how often those in the first row appeared in the second.) Very few seem to be occasions where someone either being victimized or observing would have the time and presence of mind to unholster a weapon (assuming it wasn't just floating at the bottom of a purse), take a stance, aim and fire with any hope of clipping the perpetrator. An even that's a real fantasy. In my scenario, I see six armed citizens creating a circular firing squad, not one white-hatted citizen-sheriff doing a good deed.

    So my question is, tell me again how everyone's carrying a gun is going to help? I favor giving the police the manpower and the proper equipment to fight violent crime, make sure existing laws are enforced, and in some ways try to address the problems that lead to gun violence in the first place.

    If you want a gun you should have to jump through at least as many hoops as it takes to get a driver's license--many more, really.

    GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE WITHOUT GUNS!!!

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    WILL D:

    First, if Chicago is confiscating 10,000 guns every year, then thats a good sign that their 30 years of gun prohibition is failing to keep illegal guns out of the city. Only a fundamentalist would argue that MORE restrictions are necessary.

    Second, absolutely no one is advocating that gun-rights people want "everyone carry a gun." It is frustrating to hear fundamentalists make exaggerated accusations such as this. It is dishonest and inflammatory, and only makes it harder for rational people to work towards a solution.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    The last story proves how many guns are in Chicago, the gun shooting animals listed above must not have heard about the CCW band in Illinois!

  • Tom Herlihy Interested Neighbor - Lived here 10+ years

    According to the IL Dept of Professional Regulation, Illinois has over 7000 people (non-police officers) licensed to carry a concealed weapon right now....does everyone know that? They don't seem to be shooting everyone on buses and in bars, but there have been LOTS of stories in the Trib about people stopping crime. Most of the stories do not involve the permit holder actually firing the weapon, just pointing it. Only downside is that the current CCW/Forearm Control Card system has that employment clause.

  • Tom Herlihy Interested Neighbor - Lived here 10+ years

    uuughg....edit... Firearm Control Card, not forearm...

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    Tom, can you link to a source on that number? I'm looking all over the web site of the Illinois Department of Financial & Professional Regulation and cannot find this. Are we talking about 7000 "conservators of the peace" under IL law, or are you referring to something else?
    If so, they are mayors, alderman, etc.and those are folks one would presume unlikely to go on shooting sprees.

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    Some people on the CTA need their forearms controlled for sure...

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    The Illinois Firearms Control Card is only for security guards. They can only carry the weapon while working, and when commuting to and from work. These people typically are highly vetted and are required by the state to be trained. The security company may also require additional training.

    It is absolutely NOT the same thing as a Concealed Weapon Permit. There is no state loophole concerning CCW.

    There once was a loophole in Chicago: the Cook County Sheriff issued "Assistant Deputy Sheriff" badges to connected politicos. They were considered "volunteer" law enforcement, and would be allowed to carry. When the scam was exposed, there were about 1200 of the badges in circulation. The "program" has since been eliminated. That was about 20(?) yrs ago.

  • Joe

    Alex, shouldn't your posts be in the form of a question?

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990
  • Inactive user

    You realize that article is 25 years old right?

  • Joe

    what is he does because his original post was referencing an OLD program "That was about 20(?) yrs ago."

  • Beach and Homan - 30 Years 30 Year resident HP, 60 Year, Lifelong Chicago Res

    The article might be 25 years old, but it points to a problem with CCW which was exploited by a loophole used by "assistant deputy sherrif" officers who were nothing more than volunteers. Prior to being closed, the loophole allowed volunteers to carry. When they closed the law 25 years ago, it eliminated the only loophole in the law.

  • Inactive user

    LOL, are you kidding?? Points out a problem with CCW? How do you figure that? The article is about individuals with Deputy badges. No where in the article does it say any of the individuals in question even carried a weapon, or used a weapon during a crime.

    It has ZERO relevance to this discussion.

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    First off, I miss-spoke. Last I heard, the County sheriff still has a few assistant deputies, but not many, and the Sheriff is much more careful in appointments and oversight.

    Second, I would not assume this scheme was the "only" loophole around CCW in the state. There are Police Depts in the 100 county's and many thousands of cities/towns across Illinois. Who knows what they do.

    In addition there are other official police bodies in Illinois, such as IL Secretary of State Police, IL Conservation Police, University of Illinois Police, Union Pacific Railroad Police, Southern Illinois Airport Authority Police, Cook County Park District Police, bla bla bla etc etc etc. The list is huge and they all have total police powers.

    AND . . . . . . .there are also police "auxiliary" units. I know of some- in Peoria IL, River Grove IL, and in Portage County IN. But I dont know the extent of their police powers.

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    GREG ECK:

    I would say it is relevant in that the politicians who scream for gun control are the same ones working to ensure they can carry a gun. The County Sheriff allegedly exchanged badges for political support.... until the practice was exposed in 1986. Chicago Alderman are another example. Their own law allows them ALL to carry a gun. And if an Alderman violates the technical requirements, then they change the rules to protect themselves.

    CHICAGO TRIBUNE - 2008
    Alderman pushes gun registration amnesty to help self
    http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/clout_st/2008/06/mell-pushes-gun.html

    Meanwhile, the citizens are told that guns are useless, harmful and evil.

  • Inactive user

    Oh I get ya from that perspective. The duplicity of our elected officials is mindboggling. All the time Daley fought to keep guns out of he hands of honest citizens he walked around with armed bodyguards (don't forget he wouldn't let us have a handgun in the home until the NRA took him to the supreme court and forced the repeal of that unconstitutional law).

    Politicians in Chicago always feel they deserve to be above the common man...

  • Joe

    Will D, please provide 1 example of a permit holder doing anything like you describe? There are 1000's of examples of situations happening you claim that do not happen. Please do some research this will cut down on propaganda. I posted a link to a story out of Milwaukee where a permit holder took down a robber with a shot gun at an Aldi, since you like to make things up - allow me to as well - the Aldi was filled with 50 people and they all would have been killed by the robber so that is 50 lives saved already in WI. My last sentence is conjecture and a complete fantasy, seem familiar?

  • Inactive user

    @Joe you just have to give up on some people. The deterrent effect of CCW has been well documented and thats one of the primary reasons the most Illinois state law enforcement agencies support CCW. People like Will D will continue to through out propaganda that isn't supported by the facts. They will ignore that CCW reduces robbery, rape and other violent crime because criminals have to finally worry are then going to have a victim that can actually defend themselves (something they now don't have to worry about).

    I have been surprised by the number of Emails I have received from people here who say they were originally anti but now see that CCW can help reduce crime. We will continue to gain support because CCW is the right thing to do once a rational mind understands what it really means. 49 other states didn't pass the law because it was wrong....

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Joe you are a funny guy love it ...I also recognize our duplicitous leaders er Rulers . Kind of reminds me of Rosie Oddonnell railing that there should be gun bans while at the same time fighting for "special wavers for HER bodyguards " Typical of her ilk . Alex and Greg ..keep up the good work you guys are all full of great info If I forgot someone I do apologize

  • Tom Herlihy Interested Neighbor - Lived here 10+ years

    @Alex - The FCC is not just for security guards, its for anyone that needs a firearm for work purposes, and they are vetted in the same manner as most states do their CCW law... background checks and training. The law, as written is almost identical to most states' Shall Issue CCW laws. And the one hour restriction is moot as most people with the FCC are on 24hour call, so they carry their weapon with them all over. I am friends with at least 20+ of them and they always carry. The only thing that prevents them from carrying all the time is internal company policies.

  • Tom Herlihy Interested Neighbor - Lived here 10+ years

    @Jason - There are reports on the Department's website somewhere that list the totals for every profession regulated. And its not Mayors and such, it is all the people that have been issued a FCC as part of the other listed regulated professions.

  • Tom Herlihy Interested Neighbor - Lived here 10+ years

    @Alex, Alderman and Mayors, etc.. are not allowed to carry a firearm by default... they still have to attend the State's POST classes to be qualified as Constables of the Peace. And those are long classes similar to becoming a full time police officer.

  • Joe

    Tom, could you ask those 20 people how they are able to stop themselves from "will nilly" shooting people? Maybe it will calm the fears of some of our neighbors.

  • Tom Herlihy Interested Neighbor - Lived here 10+ years

    I am pretty sure they know what you and I know... that Murder is punishable by life imprisonment or the death penalty... So many people forget this! hah!

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    TOM

    Illinois statues (225 ILCS 447/35-35) are clear. The Firearms Control Card ONLY allows carry for security firm employees, and they can ONLY carry at work. Your friends are wrong ....and breaking state law. These are felony offenses.

    ILLINOIS GENERAL ASSEMBLY - Compiled Statutes
    Requirement of a firearm control card.
    http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/fulltext.asp?DocName=022504470K35-35

    In paragraph B, the statute says: "This Act permits ONLY the following to carry firearms: . . . . . . private detectives . . . .private security . . . . private alarm contractors . . . . and their registered employees.. . . . " (caps is mine)

    Paragraph C says: " . . . . allows an employee to carry a
    firearm . . . . . while the employee is engaged in the performance of his or her duties or while the employee is commuting directly
    to or from . . . . places of employment." I see no exceptions to this limitation in the statute.

  • Inactive user

    I believe that the drops in crime around the country are not due to concealed carry but to other causes, or at the most are only a small part of the cause. You confuse correlation with causality. Besides how can you show in any definitive way that one led to the other? That's like saying, "I've been carrying this rock in my pocket all through the Loop and there are no elephants here. Therefore, the rock keeps elephants away." Nah.
    I think people who advocate arming everyone, interpreting the 2nd amendment in absolutist terms, and similar are saying they've given up on civil society. You think that laws are useless and everyone is out to get you, so going around armed is the only road left for us. I find this a sad, nihilistic worldview. I'm not so naive as to think that we will someday ban guns and live in a wonderland of hearts and flowers, but to accept the premises of gun fanatics is to give up on what makes society worth living in.
    If you are willing to talk about certain types of gun ownership under reasonable registration and regulation I'm all ears. But if you insist that registering and tracing gun owners' backgrounds and ownership itself are somehow violations of privacy rights or stains on the Constitution, then you've lost me. If you believe it's OK to sell guns at gun shows without background checks or that AK-47s and similar firepower are just fine for anyone to have, then I'm opposed 100%. Those who want to "bear arms" have to do so in some kind of reasonable and rational way, not simply because they want to.
    And I'd want to protect myself specifically from people who talk about "rulers" and "propagandists" and the like, because they are the paranoids I do not want owning guns.
    And to whoever called me a "fundamentalist"---WTF???
    As long as I'm taking care of a few comments, can I just say that when grammar and spelling are poor I tend to fault the argument and thought process of that person? I wasn't going to mention it, but there you go.

  • Joe

    Will, there is not one post or poster that believes "everyone" should be armed, the states are free to regulate firearms and I wish they would and do it better. Banning is the principle at issue, choice for properly trained and licensed citizens is the issue, the only posts i have read that show paranoid thought is yours. In a civil society responsible citizens are not to be feared but trusted its the criminals that makes society uncivilized but you are paranoid about responsible citizens that pass a gov vetting carrying a weapon? Really? It is these responsible law abiding citizens that in fact male society civil and you are paranoid about them being armed? Every study shows an armed society is a more civil society. Will, reality is down here step away from the ledge and come down the stairs and join us.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    If my spelling or grammer is poor you will judge me, bad educator, bad. I agree with you, if CCW allows children with rocks in their pockets to carry guns to keep away elephants, I am 100% against it. WHAT?!? Where did that come from?

  • Joe

    Will, i also noticed you started paragraphs with " I think" and " I believe". Shouldn't educators be able to distinguish between thoughts/beliefs and facts/empirical research? Again, I would really like to know where you educate, is it CPS? Talk about civility, does a civil society force innocent kids into failing schools where individual performance is subordinate to the health of an employee union? Good teachers are not rewarded and usually quit and bad ones retire at age 50.

  • Inactive user

    It's funny I am one of the most ardent CCW proponents and I have no intention on carrying a handgun. This isn't about arming the multitude. This is about Illinois/Chicago politicians treating us like we are children and we the people letting them do it. We live in one of the most corrupt cities, in hands down the most corrupt state and the voters just accept it because those crooks pander to voter who want the gravy train the Democratic Illinois government has handed out for years.

    Bearing arms is a Second Amendment right, period. 49 other states get it but Illinois doesn't care. Chicago was sued into compliance with the law and after several million dollars of legal expense they were slapped by the court and forced to allow law abiding citizens to have a handgun in the home. They hate it, they still make it as hard as possible, but current lawsuits (again at significant cost to our almost bankrupt city) will force them again to do what other states have always done.

    CCW will go the same way. The lawsuit in process by the NRA will move forward, the state will stall/fight and do whatever they can but the end result is clear....look at the other 49 states.

    There is NO QUESTION that the deterrent effect of CCW works. Study after study proves it, and common sense tells you if a criminal knows his victim MAY fight back they will think twice.

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    WILL D.

    I said your position is fundamentalist.

    You applauded our Mayor for his push to get state-wide gun registration. Then you admitted that Chicago confiscates over 10,000 guns a year....in spite of the city's 30 year prohibition on handgun ownership, and the city's Stalin-like oppression of long-gun ownership.

    Only a fundamentalist would argue for additional laws when the current laws are a miserable failure. Your arguments seem to fixate on the dangers of gun ownership, while you dismiss the benefits of ownership, and disparage the constitutional concerns of our country's founding fathers. That appears fundamentalist to me.

    You also wrote: "tell me again how everyone's carrying a gun is going to help?" This is so wrong. No one is taking such a foolish position. I imagine it is easier to "win the argument" if you misrepresent the position of pro-gun people.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    For all those people who think a law abiding responsible citizen may not have been able to help at any number of situations either to protect themselves or others i ask ....have you ever heard of a massacre breaking out at a shooting range ?

  • Brenton A poor, poor, writer in Humboldt Park.

    I think it would be more of a deterrent if everyone with a gun wore them in full view, not concealed. The kind of people that use guns for violence won't be deterred by the anomalous threat that their target may, maybe, have a gun. By definition most criminals take risks and are desperate.

    I will be truly interested once someone starts fighting for edged tool freedom. I want to carry my butterfly knives around without worrying that a cop is going to stop and search me and take me in for carrying a tool that closed minded people are scared of.

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    BRENTON: Well, I dont recall any study to support this, but the pro-gun people argue the opposite. And I tend to agree. If you open carry (have a gun showing), then the bad guy knows who is and is not armed. If you have the gun concealed, then the bad guy doesnt know who will shot back. Plus, the open carry people risk attracting trouble; from bad people who want their gun, and from other citizens, who frighten easily.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Will D people become rulers and not elected servants when they violate the oath of office THEY took to defend and uphold the Constitution . That is when they become rulers . I am more afraid of hypocrites like that . Stalin and Hitler acted much the same way . Can't help it if that is what certain leaders do , Rahm included . Now he wants a Statewide registry and he isn't the freaking Governor , but he wields so much influence and the Governor is so weak he can probably get his way . Once again this is what rulers do .I think Greg pointed it ou that our City/State has flown in defiance of the Constitution and had to be brought into copmpliance at a cost of millions to our City. This is what rulers do . Also , I alos like what Joe pointed out about the state of our education system . To just dismiss what someone has to say because they don't use proper grammer , on what is an informal block comment forum is well just weird . I myself hardly use paragraphs and such on these forums as it's easier to type in narritive . Not because I'm not able , but because it really isn't neccessary .I agree with all that it's not law abiding citizens who are responsible for the breakdown of our civil society . I would blame that more on criminals and also on leadership that is devoid of ethics .

  • mike Return Chicagoan circa 1996

    Great thread. Glad to see my neighbors involved. I also like Greg Eck's post on Jan. 28th regarding the town hall meeting. Time for action. I support CCW and it's time Chicago allow legal citizens the right to defend themselves.

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    Any attack on grammar or spelling is ad hominem; a personal attack, separate from the issue. I find it is used by those with a weak position, and to those trolling to provoke.

  • Beach and Homan - 30 Years 30 Year resident HP, 60 Year, Lifelong Chicago Res

    Great point about the attacks on grammar and spelling. I finally disabled the "auto correct" feature on my HTC EVO 4G because it was causing more problems than it was protecting. The bane of "smartphone" keyboards.

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    GREG ECK: I agree with your points on corrupt politicians and the 2nd amendment issues. thanks much.

    Im not sure I agree with your statement that multiple studies support CCW. The LOTT study (U of Chicago) supported gun ownership. The DONOHUE / AYERS Study (Yale) says that Lott's study is flawed. The CENTERWALL Study (U of Wash.) concludes that handgun ownership is not related to homicides, which is yet a third opinion.

    Regardless of whether there are flaws in the John Lott data, I was thrilled by his work. the anti-gun lobby had been spreading false information FOR YEARS, disguised as fact. Lott put pressure on anti-gun forces to stop making up lies. Lott's work was the impetus for more studies - something I appreciate.

    Greg - if you know of more studies, let me know.

  • Beach and Homan - 30 Years 30 Year resident HP, 60 Year, Lifelong Chicago Res

    @GREG, et al: A town hall meeting will be a great place to start, but this is not just a Chicago issue. Springfield will be the biggest part of the CCW overhaul. Remember, Chicago makes the rules for those who live within the City of Chicago but those rules must also comply with State law which is a product of the legislator.

    The only thing that home rule powers give Chicago is the right to set taxes, create a separate police department, and control over other issues relative to the residents of Chicago. When it comes to things outside of what are considered "local issues" Chicago has zero power to overrule Springfield.

    See Article VII of the Illinois Constitution for more information about what Chicago can, and cannot do with their home rule powers: http://www.ilga.gov/commission/lrb/con7.htm

    Even with "home rule" powers, Springfield still holds a lot of the strings concerning CCW.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    Chicago politicians use home rule to violate state and federal laws!

  • Tom Herlihy Interested Neighbor - Lived here 10+ years

    @Alex. Your argument is based on what I am guessing to be a false assumption. Many people with a FCC are not shift workers with a defined start and stop time. For instance, the typical armored truck guard... they have a defined day/shift/schedule. So they have one hour to get to work, do their work, then an hour to get home. And their internal company policy says they are not allowed to carry the weapon off duty. However, many people that use a firearm for work do not fit this model. They are on call, doing investigations, responding to events, and so forth. So they carry all the time. For some reason, if the firearm comes to the attention of the police and they ask you for your FCC and then they ask you ....? " Are you working?" You answer," yes," or "on my way to work"...and "its have a nice day" from the officer.

    And your comment about open carry and making others afraid is just right on target....If I am carrying my firearm openly, I want bad guys to be afraid! There is absolutely no evidence at all of people open carrying getting shot just because the bad guy opened fire first. Remember, 99% of armed robbers are not murderers, tacking a murder onto their rapsheet (and potentially return gunfire) is a risk, they don't take.

    Example after example of stories from open carry fall into two categories 1) Some uneducated person calling the police because someone is (legally) carrying openly and they are afraid or 2) The police showing up, performing a felony arrest with weapons drawn, yelling and screaming, freaking everyone out, arresting the individual... then having to release them, and having their department pay out a huge lawsuit settlement...

  • Mitch Rezman We own Windy City Parrot Western

    "guns don't kill people, husbands coming home early kill people" Larry the Cable Guy

  • I would, but I don't see it happening.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    Anti-Gun Justice Becomes Victim of Armed Robbery
    By Michael Filozof

    Ah, yes. There is such a thing as "poetic justice" after all! It seems
    that U.S. Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer, a 1994 Clinton
    appointee, was the victim of an armed home-invasion robbery in his
    vacation home on St. Kitts and Nevis. (Read the report at
    http://www.thestkittsnevisobserver.com/2012/02/10/fbi-nevis.html )

    Breyer voted against the majority in two recent landmark gun-rights
    cases: District of Columbia v. Heller in 2008 and McDonald v. Chicago
    in 2010, both 5-4 decisions. In Heller, the Supreme Court held that
    the Second Amendment granted Americans the constitutional right to
    possess a handgun in the home for self-defense, and the Court applied
    (or "incorporated") that right to the states in McDonald. Breyer
    denied that the Constitution granted Americans the right to armed
    self-defense in his dissenting opinions.

    Breyer also made a laughingstock of himself back in 1999 by citing the
    Supreme Court of Zimbabwe --- yes, Zimbabwe! -- in two death penalty
    cases, Moore v. Nebraska and Knight v. Florida.

    So... a Supreme Court justice who voted to deny Americans the right to
    defend themselves with a handgun, and who cited the phony court of a
    notorious Third World dictatorship, finds himself defenseless against
    a machete-wielding robber in a Third World tourist trap....
    Priceless!!!

    (The tragedy of the whole thing is that Breyer probably still doesn't
    "get it"...)

  • Mark Rector Logan Square and loving it!
  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Mark Rector . that thing is OH so Biased and all it does is call it's opponents names like paranoid and mentions farting Unicorns ..No one should take that seriosly and if that is what they are spoon feeding you for talking points , my only comment would be to not embarass yourself using that in a room full of grown ups

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    MARK RECTOR:

    Any left or right politio who uses the phrase "common sense" is automatically suspect. Its like FOX NEWS calling themselves "fair and balanced", or a used car dealer named "Honest Bob."

    I only got to the third para before I hit an error. The writer says:
    "". . . as part of the "militia," should a foreign power invade, you are allowed to keep and bear arms.""

    This "misguided individual" :P claims the constitution defines "militia" as some group with the purpose to fight foreign powers.

    First off, the constitution says no such thing. It only uses the term, and provides no definition.

    Second, the term "militia" is defined by US CODE. Very easy to google. http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/10C13.txt It says that the militia are males between 17 and 45 years old, including those citizens NOT in the National Guard. So, by federal law, the militia includes citizens who are NOT in the military. Meaning the public.

    Third, many founding fathers wrote of the importance of gun ownership, to protect the public good in time of danger, AND to protect ourselves from possible government tyranny. Not just some foreign invaders.

    The founders idea is that the public should have the tools to protect themselves, their homes, their neighborhoods, and their freedoms. It is a constitutional concept that is lost to many anti-gun people..... usually the left.

    Finally, the writer says he has "proved" that all conservatives are wrong in insisting that guns cannot be regulated. Again, its easy to "win" an argument when you misrepresent the position of your opponent. While there are some far-right gun people who claim this, there are also many who are more concerned with LIMITING gun regulation. The gun "regulation" should not be a political tactic used as stepping stones to total confiscation.

    Thank you for posting the link. Its good to point out the common errors made by the anti-gun people.

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    TOM: You wrote - "Many people with a FCC are not shift workers with a defined start and stop time."

    State law says you can only carry when working and commuting to/from work. Seems your friends claim they are ALWAYS working. Hope that explanation works well for them if they ever get pulled into court.

  • "Opinons are like A**holes, everybody's got one."

    It is difficult to make an educated decision with all of the un-truths and conjecture being quoted about having a weapon for self defense.

    Sometimes hearing about an actual, personal incident can help people to understand how things happen in the real world.

    Here are a few stories, republished from actual news sources, sources being cited:
    http://www.nrapublications.org/index.php/12304/armed-citizen-22/
    Also, click on the archives for more. This stuff happens every day.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Mark Rector I'll just say that after the generalizations of conservatives as paranoid I just started laughing . With writers like this it's easy to see why some people think the way they do . I would think that to read that you would have to be as indoctrinated and Biased as the writer ...It seems the programing worked on you .

  • Inactive user

    Right to Carry Town Hall Meeting
    Monday, Feb.20, 2012
    7:00-9:00 pm
    Logan Square Auditorium
    2539 North Kedzie Blvd # 15
    Chicago, IL 60647

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    My neighbor is a single mother of four kids. She has a revolver, and said she has, on two occasions, scared people out of her fenced back yard. My local grocer stopped an armed robber with his pistol. No shots fired becaue the robber ran.. But he couldnt call the police because his gun was illegal. This stuff doesnt reach the 9 oclock news.

  • Tom Herlihy Interested Neighbor - Lived here 10+ years

    @Alex... yes, a private detective, alarm response person, executive protection guy, locksmith, private police force, etc.. all are working or on call 24/7 and so forth. And yes, it is supported by the law. I do forget if it was a court case or Dept of regulation interpretation, but it was at the same general time when the Illinois Supreme Court ruled that if your weapon is part of your FCC, then its not subject to registration by the City of Chicago.

  • Inactive user

    Just a reminder the Town Hall meeting is tonight!!!

    Right to Carry Town Hall Meeting
    Monday, Feb.20, 2012
    7:00-9:00 pm
    Logan Square Auditorium
    2539 North Kedzie Blvd # 15
    Chicago, IL 60647

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    Another gun owner wins against the bad guy.

    TRIBUNE- Homeowner shoots intruder in home invasion
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-police-1-dead-in-lasalle-county-home-invasion-shooting-20120219,0,2864082.story

  • Excerpted from today's Sun Times article:

    Maniac Latin Disciples members are now under gang orders to keep violence to a minimum because of the police crackdown, the ranking member said. Still, they’re continuing to arm themselves for self-defense, he said.

    “Everybody’s toting a gun,” he said. “I’d rather be judged by 12 than carried by six. You can’t disarm because you’re vulnerable.”

  • Joe

    Maybe someone should call him and explain that carrying a gun is illegal. I am sure they are civilized law abiding citizens just unaware of the law. I am sure they have registered those guns too. If we had CCW I am sure they would apply:)

  • Inactive user

    From what I have been told attendance for this event is expected to be VERY high, and very pro CCW. Will be a good meeting!

  • Inactive user

    Great turnout at Logan Square rally! Here is an article for those who are interested.

    http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news.aspx?id=200812

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    Thanks Greg... I was planning on attending but couldn't get out of work .

  • VictorPaul Logan Square Resident

    I know this is kinda late but I forgot about this.

    http://www.icarry.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=3

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    VICTORPAUL: the link suggests that an unloaded handgun, with ammo separate, in a fannypack, is legal. The below articles are on someone who did beat the system for his 2006 felony arrest, but had to pay 4 years of attorneys fees to do so. People should be warned that the local states attorney may claim the law is vague, and still choose to prosecute. Cook Co SA has said he WILL prosecute.

    CHI TRIBUNE, 2007 - Gun Buff Wins Round
    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007-07-20/news/0707190953_1_gun-control-holster-people

    ROCKFORD REGISTER, 2010 - Rockford concealed-gun case
    http://www.rrstar.com/news/x1609340255/Rockford-Man-faces-August-jury-trial-in-concealed-gun-case

    Concealed Weapon Charge Dismissed in Court July 2010
    http://www.icarry.org/article579.html

  • Cable Mail Lifetime Logan Square Resident

    I ran into someone with a situation and no clear answer but the thought has stuck with me for a year or so and since you all are discussing gun issues, perhaps some help can surface.
    If a/or parents die and owned guns (shotguns) and had them registered, how would a surviving adult child be able to keep the guns. Knowing the person would have to get a state permit most likely is the first step. But how would they be able to get ownership changed and what else would need to be done? What is the possibility that they are considered "family heir-looms"?

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    Chicago has owner permitting (handgun), gun registration, and many gun restriction laws. They are strongly anti-gun: handgun and long gun. The laws are detailed so its easy to break them. (An alderman recently broke the law regarding gun registration.) In addition, the city has been accused of rejecting applications for arbitrary or petty reasons. I would strongly suggest you talk to multiple gun stores, or even an attorney that specializes in gun laws. Learn the laws and your options BEFORE you approach the city, and BEFORE you bring an unregistered gun into the city. My grandfather was a hunter, so I can relate. Best of luck.

  • Mitch Rezman We own Windy City Parrot Western

    I guess that begs the question Alex with all the anti gun laws on the books, why are shooting crimes on the rise? Kind of like the war on drugs - you can't legislate against stupid

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/19/chicago-weekend-violence-_n_1287652.html

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    CM a F.O.I.D. card is a must first step. You can do this on line. Then a city permit is required that you can get from a city office located at 47th and Kedzie Ave.

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    MITCH: first off, drug ownership is not protected by the US Constitution. That being said, you can "legislate against stupid." We do so with alcohol, and to great success. Alcohol problems are mush better controlled, while related social problems like smuggling, moonshining, street violence, gang wars, corrupt police and politicians, etc are greatly reduced compared to during alcohol prohibition.

  • Mitch Rezman We own Windy City Parrot Western

    so you DO agree with me - let us have our guns with "controls" put in place much like alcohol as you reference. We spend $20,000,000,000 or so a year on the "War on Drugs" - hows that going for you?

  • Mitch Rezman We own Windy City Parrot Western

    @ Cable - per http://www.downrangezero.com/gunlaw.htm

    Inheritence firearms: Illinois residents who do not possess a FOID card and inherit a firearm/ammo through a will, or as a result of an estate award, have sixty (60) days in which to apply for a valid firearm owner's I.D. The law allows that you may keep the firearm/ammo in your possession until the FOID is issued. However, if you are not comfortable with that provision, you may ask your local police department or sheriff's office to place the firearm/ammo in safekeeping for you until such time as you present them with a valid FOID. Most departments will be happy to do this for you, and also have FOID applications on hand. Contact your local agencies with any questions you may have or vistit the Illinois State Police website and look at their Q&A section for more information.

    Note: If you have been convicted of the offense of domestic violence or any felony, you cannot keep the firearm/ammo. In this event you must notify your local law enforcement agency immediately and turn the firearm/ammo into them. You can also refuse to accept it or transfer ownership of the firearm/ammo to another blood relative at the reading of the will or hearing of award, although most lawyers will not handle that aspect for you and you will have to call the police to get rid of it. Whatever you decide, don't keep it! It will land you in jail!

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    Mitch: when you said "so you DO agree with me - let us have our guns with "controls" put in place much like alcohol as you reference." - that was when you got it. Those of us on the "against" CCW side do NOT want to make guns illegal.

    We just don't think random people should carry them around concealed in public without some controls, i.e. no schizophrenics, wife abusers, people w/ violent crime records, etc.

    Yes, Chicago tends much more toward the "control" side than most places, but that's because we have massive gang problems, and a couple of areas that are like the Wild West. Unfortunately, as the pro-CCW people correctly point out, gun laws have done little to stop that (though weapons charges are one more tool that law enforcement can use against gang members). However, I think we'll all agree these problems need new and different solutions than we've had to date.

    Chicago's real problem is not that we're all walking around unarmed like lambs to the slaughter, it's that our city and county government are mostly made up of corrupt stooges who are only there to enrich themselves and do nothing to solve these problems.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    JW You almost got it! Pro CCW people want at lot of control placed on CCW (a lot in place now- do you know what a person has to do to try to purchase a gun?). There are NO random people with legal guns in public now or ever! I for one also want to see very hard time for anyone breaking any gun laws! Not like lambs to the slaughter but more able to be victimized in Illinois than the other 49 states. Last most anti-CCW unlike you want no part of guns (more guns are not the answer etc.). Do you hear how insane that sounds?!? I only speak for myself, you are dead right Illinois/Chicago gun laws are not working the best they should. Let's try CCW and if it fails, change the laws again untill we get it right. I just want to legally defend my family against the gunmen that seem to be everywhere lately! Glad to hear we have some common ground.

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    MITCH: there already ARE controls in place. No straw purchases. No mentally incompetents. No felons. And Chicago literally has the most draconic controls in the country. The result: all the gangs have guns, citizens are unarmed, and the courts have said the city is NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR PROTECTING THE PUBLIC.......all while the mayor has his own armed security, and alderman demand the right to have a CCW. The city strategy is a failure, their politicians are hypocrites, and their citizens are fundamentalist gun-phobic lemmings.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    this city pulled the rug out of law abiding citizens ...The Answer ...What is ALEX TREBECK JUST HIT IT OUT OF THE PARK ....

  • Are you willing to shoot someone? Carrying a firearm is not going to do anything for you unless you plan use it. If you find yourself confronted with gangbangers and pull out a pistol they would laugh at you and probably shoot you to get another handgun.

    Having one in a home may give you a sense of protection, but is useless unless you are willing to use it to take another's life. You make think you can. Odds are if confronted you stand a bigger risk of being shot by someone else.

    A gun is worthless unless you are willing to use it.

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    JASON W: yes, straw purchases are illegal. And Chicago has prosecuted and sued gun stores to address the prob. If other munis, states, or the fed do not enforce this nationwide law, then thats their bad. Its NOT the fault of law-abiding gun owners, because they WANT that law enforced.

    RON H: Answer to first Q....duh! As for your "statistic" that the victim stands a larger chance of loosing a gun battle....that is one example of how people take a rumor as a "fact", simply because it feels right to them. But Im open to the possibility I missed some study. So please cite the source for your "fact."

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    "yes, straw purchases are illegal. And Chicago has prosecuted and sued gun stores to address the prob. "

    And how well has that gone? Are gangs having trouble getting guns yet?

    "If other munis, states, or the fed do not enforce this nationwide law, then thats their bad."

    Yes, it is their bad. And if other jurisdictions had tighter controls, straw men would have a harder time going there to arm Chicago's gangs.

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    tighter controls??? Straw purchases are a felony, punishable by a $250,000 fine and 10 years in prison. Dealers are also subject to loss of their license to sell firearms. You can not make something "tighter" than illegal. Dont punish law-abiding gun owners for the actions of law breakers.

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    "You can not make something "tighter" than illegal.".

    I'm sure you're aware that all illegal things are not equally punished or equally enforced.

    How about double the fine and double the jail time? How about triple? That would be tighter, wouldn't it? How about stricter enforcement, revoking dealer's licenses, zero tolerance, three strikes..etc etc?

    But no, the gun lobby refuses to hear any possibility of even the most reasonable measures to stop trafficking, because we need to be able to carry our guns into Walmart?

    Sorry, we're trying to have a society here. You can keep your guns at home. It's really a quite reasonable compromise between safety and individual rights.

    Yeah, I know, 49 states, etc etc. Good for us.

  • As the late, great Mike Royko used to say, our citizens need real firepower. Legalize machineguns, bazookas, land mines and everything else that goes boom.

    And sure, hide until desired.

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    So...raising the fine from $250,000 is going to decrease violations? Raising the jail time from 10 yrs is going to decrease violations? Current strawman penalties are EXTREMELY SEVERE. Raising them will not help at all.

    Increase current gun law enforcement? Then you agree with the NRA - they want the same thing.

    Gun dealer licenses can ALREADY being revoked by ATF for dealer violations. This is not a new idea - it is current practice.

    Three strikes? Certainly an option to deal with habitual criminals, But I dont see how that will reduce gun violations. If your anti-gun strategy is to double the prison population, well .... this country cant currently afford to incarcerate 1% of their population. I dont see that percentage jumping.

    I agree the gun lobby can be intransigent. But no more so than the anti-gun lobby. I side with the NRA because of the 2nd amendment, improvements to public safety, and letting the public fight back. As for 49 states..... you can totally ignore their success with CCW laws. But then dont complain about the NRA being unreasonable

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    The NRA is and always has been unreasonable. They're even against gun *registration* for crying out loud. How many people share that opinion?

    You and I both know the NRA only says they want to "enforce the laws on the books" to try and avoid talk of any new ones. Wayne LaPierre is a dishonest hack who lives off the gullible.

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    Registration is the first step to confiscation.

    Look at Syria. They just asked all the illegal journalists inside their country to "register" with the government. Can you guess where thats headed? :-)

  • Joe

    Can someone explain to me how registering a gun would stop gangs from shooting people? Shooting people is already illegal how would a gang ignoring a registry law help anyone? Registries do absolutely nothing that is why Canada is scrapping theirs.

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    @Joe - Registration isn't preventative, it makes a gun traceable. Criminals want untraceable guns.

    @Alex - tin foil hat time.

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    Prevent untraceable guns? Criminals will not register their guns. Or they would file off the reg number. The argument fails miserably. Ironic that you would call the NRA unreasonable. The personal attack is surprising. Makes you sound like Rush Limbaugh.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    Jason W is right about one thing . Not everything that is Illegal is being pursued and or punished . Just look at Illegal Immigrants for example . One party wants to grant them sanctuary give them food stamps housing and college education for their kids while they wait to grant them amnesty and voting rights ...Not to change the subject ..just agreeing with Jason on that and citing an example .

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    Alex, you misunderstand the argument, perhaps intentionally. Everyone knows criminals will not register guns. It's about finding the last legitimate owner. Investigators pick it up from there.
    Unfortunately the gun lobby has created so many loopholes (private sales, gun shows), the trail tends to cut off well before it should.

    And calling "Registration is the first step to confiscation" a tinfoil hat theory is too kind...but no, it's not personal.

    OK, this thread is a time-waster. Bye again.

  • Joe

    What good does it do to find the last legitimate owner? How would that knowledge help anything? All it would do is cause people to file false stolen goods reports and or smuggle guns. Registry serves no purpose and I can not find any empirical research that says it does. All cars are registered does it stop people from stealing cars or speeding?

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan
  • Joe

    Jason, the issue is not knowing what it is the issue is proving it stops guns from being used illegally, find me an example of a registry law that stopped a shooting. Do we have to continue debating the difference between ideas and results? Registry has no results the idea of a registry intends.

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    As I said before, its not preventative. It's about tracing guns after the fact, so that criminals and gun runners can be caught and punished, which is something I presume we all want.

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    Some gun laws are clearly used to harass law-abiding gun owners. Chicago is a prime example of oppressive regulation, with little results. If you cant demonstrate a high success rate with registration, then the alleged benefits of catching the bad guys will not offset the factual costs of harassing the good guys.

  • Joe

    Criminals and gun runners do not register their guns, when someone steals a car do they register them after? Cars are registerd before they are stolen but not after. Prescription drugs are all registered but they are readily available. Call the CPD and ask them how many of the murders so far this year used registered guns.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Alex: The whole idea that gun owners are being "punished" and "harassed" by regulations makes just as much sense as motorists being "punished" by speeding laws. And the confiscation scenario is nothing but hyperbole and a tip-off of your worldview of us-against-big-brother. The NRA thrives on propagating fear and feelings of victimization. Honestly, we have such a glut of firearms in this country and such latitude as to what you legally can buy. All you have to do is look on the streets at what gangs are carrying. You can cite all the statistics you want to cite and cling onto the Second Amendment as if it's a God-given right to arm yourself with anything you want, anytime, and anywhere, but at its base this is a cultural issue and a gut issue. Do you want to live in a society where there's more guns or less guns? But here's a stat if you want one: in the U.S. 41% of households have firearms, compared to 26% in Canada, 4% in the U.K. and 0.6% in Japan. Intentional gun death rate in the U.S. is 13.5 per 100,000 compared to 3.9%, 0.4% and 0.07% in Canada, U.K., and Japan respectively. The last time I looked this was not due to confiscation of guns by the governments in Canada, U.K. and Japan. It is the sheer number and availability of firearms in our culture, supported by a special interest lobby that's got politicians running scared, that keeps us armed to the teeth. Just as it is with nuclear weapons and warring powers, the question is how do we begin to disarm, not how to make sure that every citizen is allowed to stockpile weapons so that they can be ready for the Apocalypse.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    Tom, I can play with numbers to. If you check Australia's crime rate with guns, it went through the roof (like up %700) after they out lawed guns. Go back, check gun crimes and not just intentional gun death rate (the miricales of modern medicine) and I bet you will surprised. I would like to see three strikes and your excuted for crimes involving guns myself. We will never be able to disarm everyone so forget that dream. Less guns, No guns would be perfect, but until we have a time machine and stop guns from being invented, I want my to defend my family from the Gang Bang Shooting Apocalypse that is going on in my neighborhood RIGHT NOW!

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    TOM G said: "The NRA thrives on propagating fear and feelings of victimization." The irony is that the anti-gun lobby is constantly doing exactly what you claim is poor behavior. That is a double standard.

    Painting pro-Second Amendment citizens as wanting to "make sure that every citizen is allowed to stockpile weapons so that they can be ready for the Apocalypse" is a blatant and inflammatory misrepresentation. Is this the only way you can make a point?

    RAKARWOWSKI is right. Looking ONLY at gun deaths, and not other social costs and benefits of gun ownership, is a completely IRRATIONAL method of assessing social policy. If you look at crimes like larceny, burglary and all violent crimes, you will see that crime goes up when criminals dont have to worry about armed citizens. Your analysis of statistics is either misguided or manipulating.

    Saying the US should be like Japan is ignorant of the stark differences between our cultures. Japan is a society that discourages individualism and ignores civil rights. I would be more open to a discussion on Switzerland and their gun policies. After all, our founding fathers did study the Swiss Confederation's gun laws when forming the 2nd Amendment.

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    Heres an interesting image of the latest swiss firearm.
    http://www.strangemilitary.com/images/content/101660.jpg

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Alex: Let us now sing from the NRA-ILA Hymnbook:

    "Few issues today are more misunderstood by the general public than the issue of gun control. Many of the commonly-held misconceptions result directly from the media's often skewed coverage of this issue."

    "It is certainly no surprise for gun owners to see the New York Times run a story belittling the United States Constitution. After all, the Times has worked for decades to devalue our founding document."

    "The bottom line when it comes to elections is simple: when provided with the facts, the nation’s elected officials usually recognize that "gun control" schemes are an infringement on the Second Amendment and a proven failure in fighting crime."

    "This country and the rights we cherish cannot stand four more years of President Barack Obama imposing his anti-freedom values on the American people."

    Let's see if I got this right. Gun control is misunderstood because of the media. The New York Times is in business to tear down the Constitution. Elected officials already know that all gun control measures are failures and infringements on Constitutional rights. The President is against freedom.

    Conclusion. They're right! On matters of gun laws, it is better to trust an organization heavily funded by arms manufacturers than scaredy-cat liberals. I also get my nutritional advice by people who know about good food: Kentucky Fried Chicken.

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    I see its much easier to post extremist writings and then attack them, than to address the pro-gun points made on this thread. Ironic that the antigun group hates strawman gun purchases, but embrace a strawman arguement.

    It would just as easy for me to come up with examples of anti-gun extremism - as Im in Chicago. But that would only prove there are fundamentalists on both sides of this issue.

  • Inactive user

    I swore I wasn't going to get back into this because it's really futile, but Tom G. sings so well from the hymnal. Regardless of anything else it contains, any argument that has some version of how Barack Obama is "imposing his anti-freedom values" or being a fascist or a socialist or has a secret agenda to destroy America has absolutely no legitimacy in my book. If anything, he's an ideal representative of the very values we say we cherish, having come from humble beginnings and so on.
    And it seems like so often the people who want to be absolutists on the 2nd amendment are more than willing to tear at other amendments like the income tax and so on. The bottom line for pro-gun folks is mostly "We want our guns no matter what." As for the self-protection argument, we're just going around in circles now but the gangs and so on aren't marauding through the Loop, they're killing each other, so I don't need a gun to protect myself. And it seems to me (although I confess it's just anecdotal from the news) that most people getting shot these days are shot by accident or on purpose by people they know, with a gun that was handy, such as the boy who shot his brother a few weeks ago when they were playing with a gun. There is no war on, folks, and I don't want people walking around armed as if there were.

    I know I'll regret posting this, but Tom gave me some hope...

  • Joe

    Maryland gun law found unconstitutional:
    http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2012/03/05/md-gun-law-found-unconstitutional/
    Will - can you please provide the quote from this thread where anyone said that "we want our guns no matter what"? I do not see anyone advocating for unregulated access to having or carrying guns. The debate is BAN vs regulating. If you look at the ban of guns they fail to enforce it, if you look at regulating they fail to regulate them too. My reading of this thread is people are simply saying the state of Illinois/ City of Chicago have no right to BAN guns in any way including concealed carry, the gov should regulate them. The State and City are free to regulate them all they want but they have to acknowledge they have no right to BAN them. Nobody believes there is a war on and all those people are getting shot by accident or on purpose by people that are not supposed to have guns .... I am betting they do not have a FOID card and they did not register the guns. All we are saying is the BAN is keeping qualified regulated people from carrying guns for whatever their reasons may be (not for me to decide) The bad guys will do what they do regardless. I am all for better regulations but CCW will not cause an increase in shoot outs - there is absolutely nothing that indicates this all studies shows reductions in shootings so we all win - you get your safe and secure utopia and qualified / regulated people will have their guns. Seems like we all get what we want.

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    Maryland allowed CCW but was extremely prohibitive. Sounds like another constitutional spanking for the anti- 2nd Amendment crowd.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Alex: You've already defended the NRA on this thread, said that you side with them, and said that they're for gun control. Go ahead and come up with some anti-gun "extremist" quotes, if you wish. But those quotes from NRA are fairly typical of their political stance--blaming the media, broad-brushing politicians that dare to vote against them, and wrapping themselves in patriotism. I picked them up from the NRA site in a couple of minutes. We can't have a rational political discourse about guns in this country precisely because of the NRA. They have become a well-funded, one-issue, hyper-aggressive strike force that effectively has silenced any real opposition in Congress because of their effectiveness at turning out the gun vote. They are reactionary in nature. And like conservative reactionaries throughout history, they cannot enjoy the pleasure of their freedoms without simultaneously attacking those who would disrupt them and negating their positions, whatever they may be, saying such outlandish things as black powder taggants will ruin sports hunting. They want every gun owner to feel that his or her rights are being attacked and that they are holding on to their guns with the ever-present threat of confiscation. I understand that you'd like to argue on a middle ground. But in this arena there is the NRA against almost everybody who wants to change things.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    Lets see Jason W wants the cops to know who the last legitmate owner of a gun was ..so the cops can go get him ? Unless the last legitimate owner gave the criminal the gun or sold it to him illegally exactly what would that do ? Oh , if he sold it to him Illegally then he is a criminal too .I agree we all want the bad guys caught I just don't know how much this will help @ Will D , Barack Obama doesn't represent anything I like . His policies are extreme and are hurting this Country . I guess to you that makes me a Racist right ? Usually that's what I get when I disagree with almost everything he has done ..I get called and labeled a Racist by the oh so tolerant left . You want to talk about someone who is abusing ammendments that would be HIM. You also say that gangs aren't marauding the streets . Guess you missed all the Thug Mobs ( made up of mostly west and south side bangers) who were mugging beating and robbing yuppies on the Gold Coast and Lakefront last summer?. Want to bet they will be back this year , considering the undermanned Police dept and the coming strain of G8

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Tom G ...it wouldn't surprise me that the NY Times would be in business to tear down the constitution they are extremely liberal and most of the Politicians they back have a penchant to view the constitution as a Living breathing document to be interpeted at THEIR whims anbd as they see fit . The NY Times has taken many stances to be" Progressive" and support their Party while usurping their own Juornalistic ethics and showing their Bias They have many times abandoned common sense , and legal interpretation of the Constitution to toe the progressive line . They supported activist jurist's for the High court who view the Constitution as a Living Breathing Document . Why would it surprise you that reasoned thinkers would deduce the NY TImes doesn't care about the Constitution ?And why are people who believe this labeled and talked about like the radicals when the exact opposite is true .There's nothing whacky or conspiratorial to beleive that they don't care about that document Evidence would seem to logically support that they are in favor of tearing down that document ..So said Mr Spock .. Barack Obama is anti gun and so is most of his party ..It's one of their platforms in trying to reach their indoctrinated poor voters in the inner city ghettos . It makes those poor citizens think they care about them in those ghetto's , when no gun ban has ever helped those people. This is their voting records and their open statements . It's not up for debate , that is their stance . Their stance has NEVER worked and those who oppose a rational solution are the ones being labeled by the left as fear mongerers and extremist's . I'm not afraid and I'm not a fear monger . I'm also not a racist etc etc.... Having said all this I always read what TOM G has to say as he certainly is a bright guy ..may not agree with him on all things but he is a bright guy ....

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Bike Jedi: I wouldn't say you're racist, just prone to exaggeration. What are Obama's "extreme" policies and how are they hurting our country?

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    Once again Kudo's Joe , Alex Trebeck and the legendary RAKARWOWSKI . I wonder what all these naysayers will say if CCW succeeds and crime goes down ...Wait a minute wait for it ...They will say Crime was all BUSH's fault ..That's why all this shooting was happening

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    I forgot a lot of people like Greg Eck and Ninny , so if I left anyone out me sorry ...

  • Mitch Rezman We own Windy City Parrot Western

    @Tom G

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solyndra_loan_controversy

    http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/weak-chevy-volt-sales-lead-five-week-plant-210758486.html

    2 that come to mind come to mind - scary to think what we haven't found out about yet

    I voted for Obama - although he's had some successes he's in way over his head - leaving the 3 or 4 Republican knuckleheads say stupid stuff

    Newt Ginrich - "If I'm elected you'll see $2 gasoline if Obama remains in office you'll see $10 gasoline

    No one has yet to explain to me how the president controls the cost of gasoline

    and it's always easier to "blame it on the black guy"

    Fact check

    http://www.issues2000.org/celeb/Barack_Obama_Gun_Control.htm

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/20/obama-gun-control-giffords-arizona-shooting_n_880206.html

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Tom G I derfinetely didn't mean to intone you personally would call someone who disagreed with Obama a racist , but that is the usual mantra from the left . There are too many extreme positions and policy decision to name , and it would take this thread off topic . I'm sure thay will be debated on other threads . However a few examples are his stated penchant to act on executive fiat because he can't get what he wants from a duly elected Congress ( recess appointments ) , his disregard for the Constitution vs the Catholic Church ( love the way he and the media have turned that into a contraceptives debate ) his crony Capitalism to support donors and their "green " companies , NDAA ...I could go on and on but lets debate that on another thread . let me tie it in a bow and bring it right back to CCW ....I find his stance on that extremist . I However support CCW and people on the left find that extreme ..and so it goes

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  • Joe

    Gas companies earn $.02 per gallon government earns $.48, as Obama said gas is a global futures market, people guess about future supply and demand, Obama policies have reduced future supply even though current production is up, issues in the middle east and China demand are certainly in play. Oil extracted from US public land could be mandated to be used In the US only this may help lower domestic prices but it may force domestic producers out of the US, which could make it worse, what does this have to do with CCW? When gas is $8 per gallon you may wish you had a gun.

  • Joe

    A primary reason insurance is more expensive is because the government keeps mandating coverages, why should I have to pay for mental health insurance coverage if I do not want it? Why do I need to pay for contraception insurance if I do not need It.
    If Its covered its not free someone is paying for it and making someone pay for your needs against their will is tyranny, It has nothing to do with women's health, Its about gov force. Keep supporting this principle of allowing the gov to force you to pay for something against your will and we will be right back where it all started, dumping tea in Boston harbor, what does this have to do with CCW? You will need a gun if this continues, rob Peter to pay Paul.

  • Beach and Homan - 30 Years 30 Year resident HP, 60 Year, Lifelong Chicago Res

    @JOE: Most of the oil companies are non-US based. AMOCO / BP is British. Shell Oil is a Dutch company.

    Even if we loosen up supplies and do not sell US oil to other countries, it will not lower the price of gasoline.

    The price per barrel is set by futures markets. The price per gallon is a combination of the price set by the gasoline companies and the local taxes.

    Until oil is removed from the futures markets, it is only going to go up.

    Some cities in California and Arizona are already seeing $5.37 per gallon for regular gasoline. It may go as high at $7.00 or $8.00 per gallon by early summer.

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  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    National Health Insurance?... is an example of government tyranny??? No mention of illegal wars? Suppressed speech? Spying on citizens? Imprisonment without trials? Or bragging that "the constitution is just a piece of paper" ....You are making it very easy for liberals to dismiss the constitutional necessity of citizen gun ownership.

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  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Joe I love the way you tied that last comment up in a nice CCW bow ...brilliant ..bravo

  • Inactive user

    Since the Obama comments have come up, it reminds me of the headline in The Onion days after the election: "Black Man Given America's Worst Job." If you think he started illegal wars, spying on civilians, deregulating the banking industry, and causing the housing and economic crisis, you must have been in a coma from 2000-08. And I can't for the life of me figure out what is wrong with national health care. (I'm not a doctor, maybe that's why...) We now have a president who actually did well in school and is in fact a Constitutional lawyer, as opposed to his predecessor, a wealthy, simple-minded layabout who stumbled and bumbled his way through eight years of recklessness controlled by a sinister VP. Really, everyone, get a grip.

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  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    WILL D: I was indeed referring to the 2000-2008 era.

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  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    Returning to the subject:
    @Bike, "Barack Obama is anti gun"? Maybe as a State Senator back in the day, but as President, not even close. He's too scared of the NRA, and too interested in "bipartisanship," which is ironic, since he gets zero cooperation and the other side just keeps calling him a radical.
    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-02-14/news/ct-oped-0214-chapman-20100212_1_gun-control-common-sense-gun-safety-laws-gun-rights
    http://www.factcheck.org/2008/09/nra-targets-obama/
    http://civilliberty.about.com/od/guncontrol/a/Barack-Obama-Gun-Control.htm
    @Joe, use the word "BAN" in all caps as much as you want, but you are in no way "banned" from owning a gun in this state or in this city. You just can't hide it on your person and walk into a mall. That is by definition not a "ban" but a "regulation".
    Also @Joe, "Nobody believes there is a war on"? You might want to straighten out Rakarwowski, who says, quote: "I want my to defend my family from the Gang Bang Shooting Apocalypse that is going on in my neighborhood RIGHT NOW!" He's not representing your argument well.
    @Rakarwowski, unless you or your family members are male non-whites under age 24 living on the far south or west sides, you are much more likely to be hit by a car than shot in this city. So look both ways before you cross.
    Finally @Bike again, as you must know, the Constitution has a built-in amendment process, making it a "living, breathing document". That's why women and black people can vote, why the president can only serve two terms etc. If you want to freeze it as it is now, you are the one who doesn't "believe" in it. It was made to be changed as needed - the founding fathers actually wrote that in. If we want to amend it to make purple our official color on Tuesdays, or mandate that everyone carry a bowling ball around, we can do it if we want. That's a living and breathing document. Saying so does not mean liberals "hate the Constitution and want to destroy it"...exactly the opposite.

  • Joe

    Banning CCW = regulating CCW - ok thanks
    War = wanting CCW for defending yourself - ok thanks

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  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    JASON W: you sound like a lawyer. TECHNICALLY, the city "regulated" handgun permits. Reality is the city stopped issuing permits in 1882. You want to pretend this was "regulation" go ahead. But anyone with common sense knows it was a defacto ban. The anti-gun crowd's extremist intents, and the dishonesty behind it, is what infuriates LAW ABIDING gun owners. Fortunately, the US Supreme Court has educated Chicagoans on the US Constitution. Hence the reason Chicago stopped their ban in 2010.

  • Joe

    Wanda, has the City of Chicago been successful at all in keeping guns off the street? There is not one instance of CCW holder in the other 49 states "losing control"

    The far right is not trying to cut off anything - forcing religious institutions to pay for something against their beliefs is the issue - how in the world is that the same as cutting off birth control? Anyone can buy birth control anytime they want that is not changing. Insurance coverage is available for anyone that wants to buy it including policies that include birth control and I have not heard of anyone saying they want it taken away - how can you equate not having something now with taking it away? In order for something to be taken away they must first have it, right? Religious institutions had the right to choose what they pay they no longer have that right - so if anyone has had something taken away its he entity being forced to do something against their will.

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    Alex, the discussion was about CCW, not handguns.
    And if I sound like a lawyer when we are discussing the law? I thank you for the compliment, sir.

  • Joe, if religious institutions provide insurance for everyone the argument is that insurance should also cover birth control since women of all faiths use it.
    And your comment that there is "not one instance" of CCW holder losing control is ridiculous - you do know that, right?

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    Obama supported anti-gun measures when he was an Illinois State Senator representing anti-gun citizens. Now that he represents citizens across the country, he has adjusted his support. This makes sense to me. With so many problems, he has to carefully pick his battles. He actually made it legal to carry guns in National Parks, which shows an ability to compromise. We need that in politics. And it must really piss off the "Obama is the devil" people at the NRA, which i like.

  • Joe - we know Obama did well in school since he headed Harvard Law Review. Anyone who knows about the Law Review - which is considered to be the best in the country, knows you must be very good to even be part of the group. Obama was the first black president of the Law Review, elected in 1990. So, yeah, we know he did well.

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    You sound like a lawyer when you pretend that a defacto ban is just "regulation." It sounds like: "I didnt inhale." My compliments to your truth twisting skills.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    @ Jason W, why do anti-CCW people like you play the race card for no reason at all? You opened the door- I will step through-Yes, I believe everyone knows that the #1 killer of males of color between the ages of 16 and 24 are males of color between the ages of 16 and 24! The numbers change drastically from being shot or witnessing a shooting when you live in HP. It is people like me that are more likely to be a victim of a burglary, battery, theft, armed robbery because drug dealers are moving out and people who have something to steal are moving in. If I still lived in Lincoln Park, I would probably would not be on this thread, but I had to move. I considered myself lucky to find a great place over looking HP, a diverse neighborhood where I can raise my children. Little did I know my family would be racially assualted time and time again (NO YUPPIES etc..), be vitims of thefts and threats. I have heard shots and then found dead bodies within a block of my home a few times now. One banger shot down the street, crashed the car he was driving and died across the street in front of my home (probably where you got-I am more likely to be hit by a car from). It seems like a war to me. What really scares me is that a lot of my neighbors think this is no big deal, I have been told "this has been going on for decades, you are not going to change anything"- "you moved here, they were here before you". I can not just move and they are wrong, I can and have changed things (helped close a gang banger liquor store , active member of block clubs and now fighting for my Consitutional right to defend my family where ever I am! So until you are willing to move my family to a place that crime does not occur, your smoke will not misdirect me from trying to keep my family safe against all the criminals carring guns in HP!

  • gpblight 15 Yr East Garfield Resident

    Lets hope CPD can get crime/safety under control.

    I am an advocate of instead of arresting less than 1 person a month at 11...they arrest 2 people a month! That would achieve at least something while this gun debate goes on forever.

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    Wanda, they will not believe the evidence even when they see it:
    http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm

    I'm sure they will resort to impugning the source, or try to shift the ground of the argument, as has occurred so many times in this thread.

    I fully expect the name "George Soros" to come up any second now.

  • EveryBlock Marina EveryBlock Community Manager

    Hi all,

    Let's please stay on the CCW topic in this thread. I've had quite a few comments reported for violating our comment policy and will be removing some comments. Please do continue to use the "report" function when you see a violation.

    Thanks in advance for keeping this discussion neighborly!

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Alex: I am a LAW ABIDING non-gun owner and don't consider thinking that the the city handgun ban was good is an "extremist" point of view. It was a commonly held point of view. Extreme would be total disarmament. People who want more guns have a variety of different views as do people who don't want more guns. Go ahead and tar anti-gun organizations. I'll certainly tar the NRA. But ad hominem attacks on everybody in the "anti-gun crowd" don't work. I went hunting with friends a few times. They had great respect for the environment. I don't consider them extremists, nor would I want to take their guns away. This is not a black and white issue.

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    JOE: Wanda is right. But not by much.

    Since 1987, Florida has issued 2 million permits. Currently there are 800,000 valid permits. Of those 2 million, only 168 people have had their permit revoked due to a crime utilizing a gun (not all of which were violent.) This is a rate of .0001 %. If you look at revocation due to ANY crime, then that jumps to a whopping .003%.

    STATE OF FLORIDA - LICENSING DIVISION
    Concealed Weapon / Firearm Summary Report
    1987 - 2012
    http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

    These are facts. The anti-gun crowd tends to ignore and deny facts. Much easier to spread fear and falsehoods about shootouts in the streets.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    @Jason W, Those numbers are a drop in the ocean when compared to killings by non-CCW killers and no one knows how many lives are save every day in CCW states. We only know the fact that killings are down more in those states than ours!

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    TOM G: I appreciate the respectful reply. I will try to respond in kind.

    For any issue, there would be two points of view. For gun ownership, those poles would be "no regulations" vs "total ban." Chicago's gun policy has been, since 1982, a hairsbreath away from a ban. Handgun permits were never issued. Long gun permit procedures were prohibitive by design, and frequently rejected. You cant get much closer to total ban that Chicago, and I dont think its productive to pretend otherwise.

    I TOTALLY agree that the NRA is extremist. But I also think liberals are in denial about their OWN extremism, and how this has contributed to NRA intransigence...... and forced people like me to tolerate the NRA because they are my best hope to counterbalance the gun ban movement.

    Finally, I use the word "extremist" to indicate one end of a belief spectrum. I am not equating "extremist" with "evil." When you say ad hominum, you imply my use of "extremist" is only a personal insult. I think that is a emotional defense to dismiss an assessment that may have some truth to it.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Alex: I made a promise to myself to admit when I'm wrong or am missing some facts, and I'll admit to not having looked much at our Chicago laws and their affect. I've just been reading a variety of opinions for across the political spectrum that say Chicago's new gun laws aren't working. If you see that the highest percentage of new registrations are in places like Norwood Park and the lowest percentages in places like Englewood, you wonder what the heck this has to do with having a gun as a defensive measure. In some neighborhoods you're not going to pay a premium or trust the police to register a gun anyway, so what's being accomplished. That said, and correct me if I'm wrong, police officials don't want CCW because it will increase the worry of officers that someone who they stop may be carrying. That seems to make some inherent sense, although the counter is you can't snap your fingers for a cop when you need one. Anyway, thanks for the reply.

  • Tom - I can tell you, from what the retired police officer who taught my Chicago Firearms Permit course said in the class, he and many current and retired CPD officers support CCW and he is confident that Illinois will have CCW within the next 12 months. I can also say that, as a former law enforcement officer myself, I would love to see citizens who have gone through stringent background checks (better than what is currently in place) and mandatory training including the law, the emotional side effects of actually drawing and firing your weapon and the things that could go wrong if you do pull the trigger, and significant time learning to operate, draw from the holster, and care for THEIR weapon (not a loaner), I am all for CCW.

  • Mark Rector Logan Square and loving it!

    I'm glad I live in a place where I don't feel the need to defend myself with a firearm.

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    Jeremy, I wish the NRA was as interested in responsible gun ownership as people like you.

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  • I hope you realize soon there will be no winner in this discussion. You can go round and round for weeks and nobody is going to change their positions.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Jason W . Do you think Obama isn't anti Gun ??? I would think the massive increases in gun and ammo purchases is enough evidence that America thinks he is anti gun . He has stated anti gun bias trime and again . Do you ignore that ? Well America isn't ignoring that . It is why Obama is known as the Leading gun Salesman in History . Be fair here you can't possibly believe he is pro gun . Do you ? I would think anyone except those on the exteme left would also see and acknowledge that he is NOT INTERESTED in bi partisanship . His record shows the opposite Using every chance to blame the Republicans and making that as adversarial a relationship as possible . Even Bill Clinton criticizes him for it . No , the evidence supports he is not a Uniter but a Divider . He does it in Congress and by pitting Americans against Americans on Ideology , Race , Ethnicicity , Religion, Immigration Status , and the all Important Class Warfare agenda . Do you ignore the overwhelming evidence ? A leader would be uniting us in our hour of need .

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    @ Jason W To answer your other question . Yes , of course I know there is a mechanism to ammend the Constitution...so why don't they use it ????? Obama has gone around the Constitution it on a number of issues... Religous Freedom , Individual Mandate NDAA and the Recess Appointments to name a few . He has also appointed activist's to the High Court that believe that the Constitution is to be interpreted on their whims instead of being discussed and ammended ..Big difference even the Liberals should be able to discern . So, my question is why do you all ignore it when he does it ? Where is your voice ? Or is it OK because your guy is doing it and you will all look past it for him ? Do you have any ethics on the left at all ? Can you see this is unprecedented in our History ? No president has acted like our Ruler rather then our Elected Servant more then him , and he gets a free pass from his adoring media and the people on the left . To tie this back to CCW . Why do you think Americans are bujying guns in record numbers ? do you think it might have to do with Obama and the Dems deisire for Gun control and his record of acting outside the boundaries of the Constitution ?

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  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    Yes Wanda A. Lincoln abused the Consitution to the 10 power during the Civil War and almost stopped habeas corpus while printing worthless 3 dollar bills as fast as he could. No wonder why he is Obama's hero, Obama follows the constitution just as past Presidents have indeed!!!

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    The Civil War I think would qualify as a special reason but I wasn't around then

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Oh, come on Rakarwowski. Lincoln? You're missing the forest for the trees. I seem to remember he accomplished a few small things.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    Mark do you live in a high rise, have body guards, order everything you need delivered, can I move into your place. Wait, where is that place you are in?

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    Tom with all these heavy thoughts, you got to let me have a little fun, liten things up a bit.

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    President Obama has not, and probably will not, piss off half the country with more gun restrictions. Its a low political priority, and the cost would be too high. But that doesnt stop the NRA from their fear-mongering. Thats why gun sales are so high.

    Now Rahm is another story. He wants state registration. If he cant ban the guns, then he will push for more harassment laws. Fortunately, the rest of the state is not gun phobic.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    Alex i agree with most of that , however I think you uinderestimate Obama's Ability to piss off half the country . I don't think he much cares if he pisses off conservatives as he knows they don't vote for him . He has displayed amazing smugness on this already . I agree Rahm will do everything he can to make life difficult for people who want to own a gun legally . I heard something on the radio today about a bill going through the legislature that would put another new tax on ammo . They didn't think it would pass however

  • Beach and Homan - 30 Years 30 Year resident HP, 60 Year, Lifelong Chicago Res

    @ALEX: And will probably not be re-elected to Mayor of Chicago because of so many of the idiotic things he is doing now, has already done, and will do before election time rolls around again.

    Stupidity is predictable, and Rahm is totally stupid and totally predictable - a TRUE MORON who is doing everything he can to run Chicago into the sewer - further down than Detroit.

    When he realizes he cannot run for Mayor in Chicago again, he will set his sights in Springfield and then we are ALL SCREWED!

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    BIKE JEDI: Conservatives wont vote for him? On the contrary. The moderates are the ones that decide elections. Both left leaning moderates and right leaning moderates.

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    BEACH: you may not like Rahm's politics, but do not underestimate him. He is a highly intelligent and experienced politician. If its any consolation, he will not be mayor for ever. I think he has higher aspirations, and will be a US Senator in 10 years.

  • Bike Jedi Bike Jedi . I live to bike . Born in the Square.

    I didn't say wont I said they don't . Obama knows this and dismisses those people with the smugness he is famous for

  • Beach and Homan - 30 Years 30 Year resident HP, 60 Year, Lifelong Chicago Res

    Rahm was thrown out of Washington because he iritated too many high ranking people. He did not resign to run for Mayor of Cesspool City, but dug his own grave there just like he is doing here.

    He will never be re-elected in Chicago, and the rest of the voters in illinois won't allow him to be elected to higher office anywhere else.

    In most cases turds float. In Rahm's case. he will sink to the bottom of the latrine where he belongs.

    The old boy party is over. As he places more and more financial encumberances on the residents of Chicago, srews over CPD, CFD, teachers, and other job holders he will put the noose around his own neck and slap the ass of the high horse he has been riding so he finally hangs himself.

    Unfortunately, Chicago will be in finanxial ruin by then.

  • gpblight 15 Yr East Garfield Resident

    We are ALREADY in financial ruin.

  • Beach and Homan - 30 Years 30 Year resident HP, 60 Year, Lifelong Chicago Res

    Fear NOT! Rahm can, and WILL do a whole lot more financial damage!

    He thinks his balet training made him "Queen of Sheba" and he's out to loot the jewels so he further add to his ilgotten fortune!

  • Joe

    12 states on path to guns with no permits : http://usat.ly/wBPoVj

  • alex trebeck Ukrainian Village since 1990

    JOE: wow! I knew about vermont, but did not know three more states now do not require CCW permits for their citizens to carry......and that includes arizona? Phoenix is a big city! WOW!

    I think this could be a political misstep. Currently the CCW permit holders have a very low incidence of improper gun use. Removing CCW requirements will give the left more leverage in their "ban or die" arguements.

  • Mark Rector Logan Square and loving it!

    Rakarwowski - I am a 20+ year resident of Logan Square. Before that I lived in NYC. I grew up in Kansas and got my first shotgun when I was 10 years old. I've just never, ever, felt that I needed to carry a gun to defend myself.

  • Did not realize that Every Block had become a bastion of the far right extremists. How sad. I was under the impression it was to be a place where everyone could give their educated opinions without harassment. Clearly I was wrong. Opinions here ripped apart by the far right who post "facts" when there are none. I won't waste my time on this site again. Hopefully someone in Chicago will open a bipartisan site where people can actually communicate.

  • Wanda. I just ignore posts about guns. The two sides will never meet. Same goes for the old car vs. bike debates.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Sorry to lose you, Wanda. It's not that this site attracts extremists. At least I haven't found that to be so. It's more like being in an extended family where you know that once you open up certain topics Uncle Fred and Aunt Marge will get into it again. Besides, it's the silly season again.

  • Tom G - I don't mind a spirited discussion. But when someone calls me ignorant - then gets my post deleted - just to go and rail against me with "facts" that aren't, it's not encouraging intelligent conversation. People like you are fine to go back and forth with - as are some others on this site. But there are some who think their word is gold - when it is just lies. Not a good place to have intelligent discussions. Thanks Tom!

  • gpblight 15 Yr East Garfield Resident

    Boy! u guys sure go to town with bantering. Wanda, don't go...just build a thick skin for the differences in opinions. This is like arguing religion, politics, race...a hot button topic.

    If you feel you have been unjustly treated...return email the moderator Becca or Mariana. They can explain the rules guidelines or get you un deleted if they feel it was unfair.

    They are fair. Sometimes I get BONKED too.

    Some topics are just hotbutton and alot of useless bantering goes on if no ones' position changes. Expression is good. But it should result in a positive outcome...like something changing for the good.

    Lots are too old and need to be RIGHT. It is a cultural problem. I like being wrong...it helps me reset a priority that was made too long ago and is not current.

  • gpblight - I actually have a pretty thick skin. It just seems that this site is really for the far right. I can discuss anything intelligently but when someone who seems to dominate the site gets you deleted then rails against you - and manages to stay on the site - it seems a bit biased - to say the least. I can deal with "know it alls" as long as they don't have so much pull you don't get to say your piece.

    Thanks for the "pep talk."

  • Rahm DID resign and was NOT run out of Washington. He made the decision when Daley resigned TO BE WITH HIS DYING WIFE. That is the only reason Daley resigned. He wanted to spend as much time with Maggie as he could before she died.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    gpblight: You said, "Lots are too old and need to be RIGHT." Think about that generalization. Narrow-mindedness isn't a symptom of aging.

  • gpblight 15 Yr East Garfield Resident

    wanna migrate to a different thread? Try the vacant lot discussion. Maybe if we are effective enough the lots will get cleaned by their owners including the city. AND maybe some can get sold to adjacent owners! That would be a productive ...involvement :-)

  • Actually, because of you and Tom G I decided to give this one another try. Although, I would love to see something good done with the vacant lots - maybe community gardens this summer?

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  • gpblight 15 Yr East Garfield Resident

    This thread is not my bag. But for some reason emails come to me...I am not for these garden things. I think a new movement should be to FORCE the city to sell these lots and return them into taxpaying parcels. It is a racket to hold vacant land for 40 years...and ultimately kills the neighborhood.

    Without private ownership of land and land that pays TAXES...the remaining have to pay taxes for themselves plus the revenue lost on the vacant parcels to pay for city services that escallate each and every year..

    It is a vicious cycle...gone on for far too long and it has bankrupt the neighborhood and the city. My block is half empty and about 300 units have been lost (a couple were small hotels)

    Community gardens started 40 years ago in Depaul. Eventually they turned into a public building like Depaul university administration or a playlot.

    Here it is a different animal. We are fighting for our existence...we need NEW RESIDENTS to come and occupy the neighborhood. We are shrinking in population every year. If every house purchased the adjacent city owned lot next door...we could return maybe 10-15% of the parcels to the TAX ROLLS.

    Becca and Mariana please don't delete me. This is an official invitation to someone to join another thread that would benefit their BLOCK. :-)

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    Wanda--Community gardens are great. Please go to the main Avondale section of this site, if you're in Avondale, and put your comment there to start a new thread. That is, unless you'd like to discuss whether or not you should be able to carry a concealed weapon in a community garden.

  • Tom - probably not a good idea since I might shoot someone stealing my tomatoes! Not seriously! :-) Sorry - I'm not in Avondale.

  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    Mark, I respect your feelings and you never need to carry a gun so why can't you respect the Consitution and allow me the right to follow it like the other 49 states. The last 20+ years Logan Square has been getting a lot better. Have you ever witnessed a gang shooting in front of your home? I have a few times! You may not need a gun to protect yourself, but I must protect my family because Rahm and the police are not going to!

  • Jason W Lifelong Chicagoan

    Hey, maybe we should try getting back on topic.

    Joe, you said up-thread, quote: 'There is not one instance of CCW holder in the other 49 states "losing control"'

    So I provided evidence of hundreds. Will you admit you were incorrect about that?

    Yes, I know, it's a "drop in the bucket" as others have said. But "not one instance" is plainly wrong, we can all agree. And certainly, each of those crimes was horrible for someone's family.

    OK, now that you have that data, on to step 2. Please present some data about CCW holders who prevented crimes, stopped crimes, scared away criminals, or anything else. Get your numbers together and let's compare. Then maybe we'll be able to weigh the issue subjectively. # of times CCW has helped vs. harmed.

    Can any of you do that? I truly don't know what that data would show, and I am ready to change my mind if you've got it.

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  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    RAKA: Speaking of CCW, are you any relation to Captain R.A. Karwowksi who was stationed at El Toro Marine Corps Air Station in 1988?

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  • RAKARWOWSKI RETIRED CITY WORKER, CLEANING UP HUMBOLDT PARK

    HA HA Tom, no my father served in WWII.

  • RAKA - I don't need to say anything. You proved my point with your post.

  • Joe

    Only Wanda gets to call people names, i would like to Wanda to provide a 3rd party reference to back up any of the opinion written. By 3rd party I mean a study of some kind not a Maddow link.

  • Joe - I'm looking and I guess far righter is a bad name to you guys. Hmmm. And, just for the record, I've never sen Maddow's show.

  • Tom G Living in Avondale since 1994

    RAKA: If you Google R.A. Karwowski you will find the L.A. Times report from 1988 about a horrible crash at an airshow and your namesake as a captain who survived because he missed the flight. (Just doing a normal background security check here, sir.) But nothing about CCW.

  • EveryBlock Marina EveryBlock Community Manager

    Hey folks, we take closing discussion threads seriously, but this conversation has gone pretty far off the rails and we continue to get more comment policy violations.

    We're going to go ahead and close out this thread. I'll leave this thread with one more reminder of our community guidelines: http://www.everyblock.com/about/comment-policy/.

    See you elsewhere on EveryBlock.

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